The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hey folks ...


    Been a lot of chatting on here about picking. Lots of super cool stuff. I'm curious what some of the picking aficionados on here do to work on various aspects of their picking. So after you've gotten the mechanics of something down, how do you work on accent patterns and slurs and rhythmic variety and stuff like that? How do you find some of your picking ideas stand up to different rhythmic patterns? Since the general consensus is "learn it all and apply as needed" then how do you decide which picking pattern you might use for a particular passage, beyond the technical considerations?

    In short: I'm curious how you practice your picking - not so much what your picking style is but more what you do on a daily basis to practice it. Literally. What do you sit down to do? What's easy and what's not?

    For the sake of conversation ---- I usually work with slurs and alternating more than anything. Lately I've been doing lots of scale patterns in 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 note groupings. So playing a scale up and down with 4 notes per click, the five, six, seven, and eight. Then an interval pattern with four notes per click, etc. Then a triad pattern, etc. So I get different melodic patterns distributed over different subdivisions. It ends up distributing accents in a cool way. I usually work on it very slowly to get pick accuracy and clear accents.
    The hangups always tend to be the interval skips (ie playing a scale in sevenths; C up to B, D up to C, E up to D, etc). They don't sit well with alternating or any sort of economy picking. I generally find that the alternating working better for me but it may very well be because I'm generally more accustomed to it.

    Anyone else?

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  3. #2

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    Hybrid picking?

  4. #3

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    Honestly, mostly just playing tunes. Thats the whole point right? I do a quick technique warmup then I just play music. Nothing better for playing fast bebop, than playing fast bebop...

    Remember, some things just are not possible, or better put, practical. Virtuoso's of every instrument have a way of getting around the impossible, without letting you know they avoided something.

    To sum up,

    technique
    vocabulary (whether melodic or harmonic)
    playing tunes

  5. #4

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    I agree; I think that everything you need or want to learn is in the songs you want to play.

    Wasn't it Wes that said something like, "I don't practice anything I wouldn't play in a song"?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I agree; I think that everything you need or want to learn is in the songs you want to play.

    Wasn't it Wes that said something like, "I don't practice anything I wouldn't play in a song"?
    However, if you were having a problem with a specific fingering or whatever in a song you were learning, it would seem to me that building an exercise around this would be far more efficient than just 'encountering it occasionally when it popped up in that particular song'.

    dave

  7. #6

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    Dave's right. I mostly play tunes for practice, but even after all these years, there's still technical study that I do.

    now with pick practice...the thing about string skips is that going away from you, from a low string to a high string (in pitch) is easy. it's skipping back the other way and keeping the alternating picking that is tough. I remember working on that for a long time when I was about 19 or 20

    but for rhythm and accents....I know I'm going to get flayed alive for saying this....but noodling around will help you tie what's in your head to your hands. And that's all it is. When I play accents with a pick, it is because I heard the accent in my head

    just don't noodle at rehearsal or in between tunes on a gig

    you'd give us all a bad name

  8. #7

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    One thing I started doing recently has helped my picking and my playing of tunes. Each day starts with 'the next key.' (If it was Ab yesterday, it will be Db today and Gb tomorrow. Today, for me, happened to be C because yesterday was G; tomorrow shall be F.)

    I play the arpeggio of the chords of a major key (CM7, D- E- FM7 G7 A- Bm7b5 CM7).

    I'll start with the root, then play to the highest point on the high E string in that position, then back down to the lowest tone on the low E string in that position, then back to the root. Then I'll do the whole thing somewhere else on the guitar. Then one more place. Three is enough to do at a time.

    It only takes a few minutes to do this. It's a gentle warm up and as one's fretboard knowledge increases, one can use different voicings.

    Then I usually play this way through changes for "Autumn Leaves" (-though now in time). Arpeggio studies are not improv, but the more at home I feel with them, the less worried I am about getting lost in tunes or knowing where the note I hear in my head will lie on the fretboard in the current position.

  9. #8
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    Picking is... er - child's play:

  10. #9

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    Here's the thing - from my experience practicing technique is not about linear advancement it's about radical change.

    If you find something difficult, practicing it for hours getting slightly faster will absolutely not help. You will continue to hit a brick wall.

    As a player who has experimented with several different approaches to picking, every time I overhaul my technique (economy picking, Gypsy picking, Benson etc etc) I experience a very quick set of gains once the basic mechanics have been mastered. After that it's simply a matter of warming up each time I practice and finding ways to address technical challenges that come up in the music I need to play.

    When developing a right hand approach, you also need to ask yourself - what do I want my right hand to be able to do?

    No right hand technique has it all. Different approaches have different strengths.

    String skipping cross picking is a classic right hand challenge, although I don't find it too difficult with a downward pickslant approach I use for Gypsy picking - there's something about using this type of right hand that makes string skipping less of a pain - I think it maybe to do with the fact that the upstrokes come out of the plane of the string, and the rest stroke gives you a clear reference point for position.

    That said, I don't play this stuff at shred speeds.

    A classic way to address string skips is using hybrid picking - however, I'm watching with interest some of these videos of cross picking mayhem being posted up on Troy Grady's site.

    Last edited by christianm77; 05-20-2016 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #10

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    I agree with Christian... but would add, you need a basic reference picking style, your default picking. Obviously I use alternating... and there a ton of reason why. The main being less wall when playing jazz. But I don't believe that the only choice... but i do believe you do need to make a choice, to be able to develop from.

    Super talent can overcome almost anything... I'm not from that group.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I agree with Christian... but would add, you need a basic reference picking style, your default picking. Obviously I use alternating... and there a ton of reason why. The main being less wall when playing jazz. But I don't believe that the only choice... but i do believe you do need to make a choice, to be able to develop from.

    Super talent can overcome almost anything... I'm not from that group.
    Of course, telling someone to alternate pick tells you only what way to move their pick.

    That's really the tip of the iceberg.... Unless you are lucky and stumble on an effective approach, developing a good picking technique is much more involved than that. You could easily spend 10 hours a day on your alternate picking, say, and hit a wall if you are making your actual pick strokes in the wrong way.

    Picking shouldn't be like that.

    Unfortunately we are still in the dark ages with the pedagogy of the instrument. I do think the Troy Grady material is shining a bit of light on it. His approach is super super mechanical though, I find it quite alien. But I have learned a lot.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-23-2016 at 05:35 AM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Honestly, mostly just playing tunes. Thats the whole point right? I do a quick technique warmup then I just play music. Nothing better for playing fast bebop, than playing fast bebop...

    Remember, some things just are not possible, or better put, practical. Virtuoso's of every instrument have a way of getting around the impossible, without letting you know they avoided something.

    To sum up,

    technique
    vocabulary (whether melodic or harmonic)
    playing tunes

    I've been spending about 50% of my time on bop heads lately ... I never intend to but it's super addictive when you start feeling loose and getting the tempos up and fiddling with the makeup of the lines and the fingerings.

    Also ... when you say "vocabulary" ... what do you sit down and do? Work on a transcription? How?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    One thing I started doing recently has helped my picking and my playing of tunes. Each day starts with 'the next key.' (If it was Ab yesterday, it will be Db today and Gb tomorrow. Today, for me, happened to be C because yesterday was G; tomorrow shall be F.)

    I play the arpeggio of the chords of a major key (CM7, D- E- FM7 G7 A- Bm7b5 CM7).

    I'll start with the root, then play to the highest point on the high E string in that position, then back down to the lowest tone on the low E string in that position, then back to the root. Then I'll do the whole thing somewhere else on the guitar. Then one more place. Three is enough to do at a time.

    It only takes a few minutes to do this. It's a gentle warm up and as one's fretboard knowledge increases, one can use different voicings.

    Then I usually play this way through changes for "Autumn Leaves" (-though now in time). Arpeggio studies are not improv, but the more at home I feel with them, the less worried I am about getting lost in tunes or knowing where the note I hear in my head will lie on the fretboard in the current position.
    Awesome! That's exactly the kind of thing I was curious about ... like step by step ... what do you do?

    Do you ever try the tunes in different keys or with extended arpeggios or anything like that?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASimpleGuitarist
    I would stop doing only scale patterns, and start doing songs with complex rhythms requiring good picking technique.
    Tell me more ...

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    I've been spending about 50% of my time on bop heads lately ... I never intend to but it's super addictive when you start feeling loose and getting the tempos up and fiddling with the makeup of the lines and the fingerings.

    Also ... when you say "vocabulary" ... what do you sit down and do? Work on a transcription? How?

    Hello, an example of vocabulary would be playing major seventh arpeggios off the b7 of the dominant. Another would be min7b5 off the third of the dominant.

    Essentially, any bit of language I hear that sounds interesting, I analyze it in relation to the harmony below, then shed it until it's internalized, until it's mine. These bits of vocabulary can come from anywhere, transcriptions, heads, books, etc.

    Hope that helps,

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Hello, an example of vocabulary would be playing major seventh arpeggios off the b7 of the dominant. Another would be min7b5 off the third of the dominant.

    Essentially, any bit of language I hear that sounds interesting, I analyze it in relation to the harmony below, then shed it until it's internalized, until it's mine. These bits of vocabulary can come from anywhere, transcriptions, heads, books, etc.
    How do you shed it? Do you put them over tunes? Do you freely improvise with them and try to use them to come up with new ideas? Do you play them over different chord types, transpose them, alter the interval construction? Play them with a metronome?

    Basically the reason I started this thread was that I find that this forum rarely talks about practicing, beyond the surface level sort of "I'm working on this concept and this concept and this concept." I want to know how people are working on their concepts. What they do after they pickup the guitar and the pick.

    When I work on vocabulary from bebop heads I shed it in every position in one key at a slow metronome marking, then go to the next key and bump the metronome up. Play it all positions and then move on to the next until I top out. That might take a couple days. Then I pull smaller bits out of it and transpose them diatonically. Often with the metronome. I'll also smush them together so that the rhythms are all eighth notes. Then I'll bump up the speed with the eighths, then triplets, then sixteenths. Then I'll start fiddling with the interval construction - like if there was a skip of sixth then I'll make it a fourth or fifth or seventh or something like that. Then I work it more freely over tunes.

    I want to know the process -- what do you actually do to practice vocabulary? The how. the process.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    How do you shed it? Do you put them over tunes? Do you freely improvise with them and try to use them to come up with new ideas? Do you play them over different chord types, transpose them, alter the interval construction? Play them with a metronome?

    Basically the reason I started this thread was that I find that this forum rarely talks about practicing, beyond the surface level sort of "I'm working on this concept and this concept and this concept." I want to know how people are working on their concepts. What they do after they pickup the guitar and the pick.

    When I work on vocabulary from bebop heads I shed it in every position in one key at a slow metronome marking, then go to the next key and bump the metronome up. Play it all positions and then move on to the next until I top out. That might take a couple days. Then I pull smaller bits out of it and transpose them diatonically. Often with the metronome. I'll also smush them together so that the rhythms are all eighth notes. Then I'll bump up the speed with the eighths, then triplets, then sixteenths. Then I'll start fiddling with the interval construction - like if there was a skip of sixth then I'll make it a fourth or fifth or seventh or something like that. Then I work it more freely over tunes.

    I want to know the process -- what do you actually do to practice vocabulary? The how. the process.

    Good question, lets take another concept/bit of vocabulary. Pentatonic superimposition (usually to access MM vocabulary in interesting ways outside of the typical scale approach), lets take a simple one, playing Abmm7 (or b7 if you handle it with care) over G7.

    I'll usually start with playing something over a ii V I jam track all over the neck. Then it's in my ears and under my fingers. Then I apply it to a tune over every dom7 chord. A great tune for this for instance is "Afternoon in Paris". I make sure to do this at tempo, learning lines at half the speed you eventually play it is something players need to get out of doing asap, otherwise you end up with a bunch of lines that don't work at full speed.

    Another technique I will do is take a II V I jam track and play through all my pentatonic superimpositions one after the other. That gives every dom7 chord a different flavor.

    Most importantly, playing over tunes is the best thing you can do, so I try to do more of that than anything. I use the above techniques to get new devices/vocabulary in my ear, in order for them to come out when I'm playing. There is the Pat Methany quote something like it takes months for what you are working on to come out naturally in your improv, so understand that the "homework" type practice won't pop it's head up immediately, but you turn around in 6 months and your bag of tricks has doubled in size.

    Take care,

  19. #18

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    Awesome! I think its really interesting that you consider "vocabulary" to be harmonic ideas. I've always thought of "vocabulary" as melodic ideas. Like the first half measure of Segment and the first measure of Scrapple are vocabulary that can be used like a minor triad in a bunch of different superimpositions. Interesting to flip the way I think about it.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Awesome! I think its really interesting that you consider "vocabulary" to be harmonic ideas. I've always thought of "vocabulary" as melodic ideas. Like the first half measure of Segment and the first measure of Scrapple are vocabulary that can be used like a minor triad in a bunch of different superimpositions. Interesting to flip the way I think about it.

    Not quite, it has to be both. A melodic figure is "useless" without a harmonic reference. The harmonic relationship will hip you to where you can effectively use that melodic idea, and have it work every time. As your melodic and harmonic vocabulary increase, you can then find other creative ways of using previously learned material in new ways.

    For instance in the beginning you may learn that playing off the b7 of the dom is a great way to access upper structure notes (9,11,13, etc), as your harmonic knowledge increases you understand that a G7 is also Abdim, Bdim, Ddim, fdim, as well as Bb7, Db,7 and E7,... Now you can start applying that b7 concept over those equivalent chords and your bag of tricks just quadrupled in size.

    Again, all this (as was mentioned in your OP) is stuff that assumes you already have a solid knowledge of the fretboard, theory, technique, etc. For instance, I no longer work on technique, but I put in a lot of time in the past to get up to playing 16th's at 200 bpm. Once you get there, it's like riding a bike. You don't forget it, you just have to take it out a couple times a month and "dust it off".

    Long story short, what you practice, very much depends on the level you play at.

    Best wishes,

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Not quite, it has to be both. A melodic figure is "useless" without a harmonic reference
    Not entirely sure I agree

    Just kidding ... or am I?

    But I was just referring to a difference of terminology. I've referred to vocabulary as a melodic idea that I can then use in a variety of contexts. The contexts were harmonic and were something different. In my example that would come at the end when I was working on the line with tunes. I do, however, work on harmonic ideas separately while I'm developing the "vocabulary."

    But to summarize ... everything you said I'm on board with. One idea ten ways is as good as ten ideas one way (probably better). So it's best to develop those things in tandem.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Not entirely sure I agree

    Just kidding ... or am I?

    But I was just referring to a difference of terminology. I've referred to vocabulary as a melodic idea that I can then use in a variety of contexts. The contexts were harmonic and were something different. In my example that would come at the end when I was working on the line with tunes. I do, however, work on harmonic ideas separately while I'm developing the "vocabulary."

    But to summarize ... everything you said I'm on board with. One idea ten ways is as good as ten ideas one way (probably better). So it's best to develop those things in tandem.
    I'm not terribly interested in harmony, personally, just the basic functions. I see harmony as emergent.

    Melody is where it's at for me. A b7 maj7 arpeggio on dominant is not language. It's just a b7 arpeggio. It needs more to become language - rhythm, flow, internal dynamics, accents, passing tones.... all sorts of things.

    There's plenty of guitarists playing arpeggios and scales out there, and they sound like it. I got so sick of my playing sounding like that... I'm trying to get away from it.

    They aren't separable really - you have to play changes in your lines - which isn't quite the same as vertical harmony, exactly. I'm starting to think the vertical harmony thing - this 'collection of notes x on chord y' might be a bit of a blind alley in a way. Something they could teach at college.

    How can this help you? Well learn lines, preferably by ear. Then come up with your own. Listen to what people do in standard harmonic situations - Blues, Rhythm Changes, Modal vamps and so on.

    That'll teach you more than studying to them play originals.

    It's not rocket science however much people want it to be.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-24-2016 at 09:55 AM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm not terribly interested in harmony, personally, just the basic functions. I see harmony as emergent.
    I'm not sure I'd quite as strong a statement as all that but I definitely probably fall a little closer to you on this one. I had a teacher who used to talk about vertical gravity and horizontal gravity. Vertical gravity being when a line sounds good because there's a strong association between the note that is sounding and the other notes sounding above (chords) and below (bass). Horizontal gravity being when a line sounds good because there's a strong association between a note and the ones that come before an after - meaning that a line sounds strong melodically and can stand apart from or in opposition to what's happening harmonically. You're always implying harmony when you play a melody so you can't quite separate the two but melody absolutely can be more important than the harmony at a given time.

    Where are you pulling your vocabulary from now? What recordings or players? When you set out to incorporate some of their language, how do you start?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's not rocket science however much people want it to be.
    quotable

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    I'm not sure I'd quite as strong a statement as all that but I definitely probably fall a little closer to you on this one. I had a teacher who used to talk about vertical gravity and horizontal gravity. Vertical gravity being when a line sounds good because there's a strong association between the note that is sounding and the other notes sounding above (chords) and below (bass). Horizontal gravity being when a line sounds good because there's a strong association between a note and the ones that come before an after - meaning that a line sounds strong melodically and can stand apart from or in opposition to what's happening harmonically. You're always implying harmony when you play a melody so you can't quite separate the two but melody absolutely can be more important than the harmony at a given time.

    Where are you pulling your vocabulary from now? What recordings or players? When you set out to incorporate some of their language, how do you start?
    Very well put! Exactly my thinking really... Horizontal gravity. Vertical gravity is of course present - you outline chords in your lines etc...

    However rather than thinking - here is a G7, and I am superimposing a Bm7b5/Dm7/Fmaj7/Db7/Bmaj7 whatever over the top to get this overall sound, we can probably reject this extra elements of theory and just think about a cadence expressed in melody. For example I'm going to play Bmaj7-Cmaj7 because it expresses tension (Bmaj7) moving to release (Cmaj7.)

    Perhaps you could even remove the tension from your harmony by playing Cmaj7 alone

    Underneath, the rhythm section might be playing Dm7 G7 C, Fmaj7 F#o7 C, B7b9 Em or even (!) C A7 | Dm7 G7 - doesn't really matter too much so long as you hear the line clearly in your mind's ear and where it resolves. Rhythm is really important.

    Basically the line has its own gravity, tension and release and the bass is doing something else, and the piano (if there is one) something else again, and the whole thing comes together in performance. The thing you have to really master is managing the resolutions, coming with strong rhythms and compelling melodies.

    With that in mind it's amazing what you can do that you wouldn't thinking in terms of vertical harmony. F#o7 over G7, and so on.

    There are some things that don't sound good - of course, but learning how far out you can go and what represents safe and common practice (I think) is best done by playing with other musicians and using your ears. You can theorise after (if you want)... I err on the side of caution in my playing, but I am starting to see a whole world out there...

    I am probably over stating the case, but sometimes you have to do that to make a point. It's like old jazz guys saying 'we never used scales for improvisation' - of course they did - you can hear them! What they mean is they didn't think in terms of modes. Sometimes you go in the opposite direction to get to a truth that is somewhat more complex. Or something :-)

    Most players here know as much harmony as they need to play changes. What they may lack (and really I am talking n my case) is a sense of true vocabulary and language which seems to come more naturally to horn players. At least to my ears.

    That's what I'm into.

    Tools that I've used - well I always go on about Barry Harris, but his teaching represents one of the few examples I've seen of a melodic approach to jazz improvisation. Rather than saying, here are the scales, now get on with it, he offers a whole range of different techniques to develop proper jazz lines from simple scales. There are a million possibilities in the simplest scales. You also a learn away of boiling down busy bop and standards chord progressions in a way that makes them a lot less intimidating.

    Other approaches - Lee Konitz has an approach based on variations of the melody, the oldest and most overlooked (IMO) approach to jazz improvisation. Warne Marsh has a different approach drawn more directly from the Tristano school.

    Not many guitar players, you'll notice :-)

    The ultimate tool is transcription. For an experiment - try not analysing beyond 'this line works over a two bar turnaround' or whatever, and then seeing what you can do to change a line around and improvise with it.

    Anyway, I should probably go and practice some of that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-24-2016 at 11:42 AM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm not terribly interested in harmony, personally, just the basic functions. I see harmony as emergent.

    Melody is where it's at for me. A b7 maj7 arpeggio on dominant is not language. It's just a b7 arpeggio. It needs more to become language - rhythm, flow, internal dynamics, accents, passing tones.... all sorts of things.

    There's plenty of guitarists playing arpeggios and scales out there, and they sound like it. I got so sick of my playing sounding like that... I'm trying to get away from it.

    They aren't separable really - you have to play changes in your lines - which isn't quite the same as vertical harmony, exactly. I'm starting to think the vertical harmony thing - this 'collection of notes x on chord y' might be a bit of a blind alley in a way. Something they could teach at college.

    How can this help you? Well learn lines, preferably by ear. Then come up with your own. Listen to what people do in standard harmonic situations - Blues, Rhythm Changes, Modal vamps and so on.

    That'll teach you more than studying to them play originals.

    It's not rocket science however much people want it to be.


    No offense, but you're wrong, this comes directly from an 85 year old trumpet player, the complete antithesis of the modern chord scale theory. This is the language of Bird (that exact example, measure 14 Scrapple from the apple) and all the other bebop greats.

    All of the other things you mentioned (rhythm, flow, internal dynamics, accents, passing tone) are variable, thats what you do with the vocabulary, thats how you vary it and keep it from becoming stale. It's just like language, you connect small bits of vocabulary in order to better express your thoughts and feelings.

    I saw your half page explanation of playing a min iv over a dom7, all I could do is shake my head... It's a min7 arp off the b7 of a dom7 chord. It's a little snippet of vocabulary, that's all.