Working on 16th notes at 190bpm

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 10:30 AM

I remember when I was in my 20s and my guitar teacher told me that 16th notes at 160 was pretty much the upper limit for guitarists.

Eric Johnson and many of the metal guys are way up over 200 in terms of 16th notes.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-05-2016, 10:38 AM

Picked or legato?

Picked, Id say "wow," but I believe it. Legato, absolutely.

**AlsoRan** · 03-05-2016, 10:43 AM

Finally, someone gives me an idea of what human limits on the guitar are.

Interesting how the modern players have pushed the envelope beyond what your teacher saw as the limits.

Some might find it interesting that I have spent months just picking one string as fast as I could. The very fastest I can pick is 16th notes at 208 bpm (on a good day).

Now harnessing that to play notes and skip strings is another story. Endurance is also an issue with me.

I know a lot of folks don't like to talk speed because it has been corrupted by so many, but a fast passage in a solo can really grab one's attention IMHO. Use tastefully, it is quite the tool to have in one's arsenal and is a must for traditional Bebop IMHO.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Picked or legato?

Picked, Id say "wow," but I believe it. Legato, absolutely.

Picked

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 10:47 AM

To me , the stuff eric johnson does with bursts of notes reminds me of a butterfly or hummingbird. The metal guys take it a bit past my listening comfort zone although some of the modern metal guys have a lot of jazz-influenced material in their playing - perhaps from the holdsworth connection.

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Finally, someone gives me an idea of what human limits on the guitar are.

Interesting how the modern players have pushed the envelope beyond what your teacher saw as the limits.

Some might find it interesting that I have spent months just picking one string as fast as I could. The very fastest I can pick is 16th notes at 208 bpm (on a good day).

Now harnessing that to play notes and skip strings is another story. Endurance is also an issue with me.

I know a lot of folks don't like to talk speed because it has been corrupted by so many, but a fast passage in a solo can really grab one's attention IMHO. Use tastefully, it is quite the tool to have in one's arsenal and is a must for traditional Bebop IMHO.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-05-2016, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Picked

I've definitely heard the metal guys get up there...sometimes with the compression it's hard for me to hear what's picked and what's not. But my old faves, Slayer, we're certainly playing picked 16th note riffs at 200 30 years ago, even...obviously different than a melodic lead, but there, for sure.

Now, improvising freely at that speed, that's the real challenge...but if the technical side can be attained, I see no reason why the other half wouldn't be attainable.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I've definitely heard the metal guys get up there...sometimes with the compression it's hard for me to hear what's picked and what's not. But my old faves, Slayer, we're certainly playing picked 16th note riffs at 200 30 years ago, even...obviously different than a melodic lead, but there, for sure.

Now, improvising freely at that speed, that's the real challenge...but if the technical side can be attained, I see no reason why the other half wouldn't be attainable.

i don't like the speed for speed's sake but I do like the fluttering sound like wings beating when done tastefully.

**kris** · 03-05-2016, 11:36 AM

I work on speed about two years...some phrases are difficult some not.
I think right hand picking is a key.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by kris

I work on speed about two years...some phrases are difficult some not.
I think right hand picking is a key.

both hands are key. You cannot get true speed until your hands are coordinated and you have to adjust your fingers to make the picking the most efficient. That's the key to playing fast ala tim miller, holdsworth, eric johnson, shawn lane, etc.

**kris** · 03-05-2016, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

both hands are key. You cannot get true speed until your hands are coordinated and you have to adjust your fingers to make the picking the most efficient. That's the key to playing fast ala tim miller, holdsworth, eric johnson, shawn lane, etc.

some phrases I play faster without pick...with pick it is impossible to play them.

**princeplanet** · 03-05-2016, 12:24 PM

Yeah, but Metal shredders sound terrible on an archtop! Anyway, 16ths at 180 is plenty speed for me, but not clean enough for the tough bebop lines with lots of string skips and combos of steps and leaps.

Right now I really like the feel of 140, fast enough for the dizzying effect

, but not so fast you can't think ahead or change your mind at the last minute. Also, you can still squeeze out some triplets (equivalent of straight 16ths at 210 - so right at the very top of my personal range).

The speed thing for guitar players has such a bad rap, that, although I love to listen and play music at brisk tempi, I get very self conscious if people walk in the room. I hate to think that people might think I'm showing off. This problem has been caused by millions of players over the years actually showing off (although usually playing badly). Most fast guitar playing is about as interesting to listen to as fast typewriting, actually, I'll be honest and say that I actually think fast typewriting is far more interesting to listen to. My long suffering wife would rather listen to the fridge rattling than to me practicing, even unplugged!

**vintagelove** · 03-05-2016, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I remember when I was in my 20s and my guitar teacher told me that 16th notes at 160 was pretty much the upper limit for guitarists.

Eric Johnson and many of the metal guys are way up over 200 in terms of 16th notes.

i'll start by saying you're as good a picker as you need to be.

The question boils down to does the phrase use an odd or even number of notes per string.

Just so you know I'm not talking out of my.... I have posted videos here demonstrating what are the practical limits of alternate picking. If a phrase contains an even number of notes, the limit is around 200bpm. If a phrase has odd numbers of notes, the limit is around 170. When you mix in Ho/po with your picks, that's when you achieve that "blur".

So your teacher was pretty close, unless you're playing lines specifically to be played at 200. Eric Johnson picks nowhere near 200. What he does is shape his picked notes and legato notes so they sound extremely similar. 99% of them are either mixing in legato, or playing even groupings on each string so that they avoid outside picking.

Again, I still think you have all the picking technique you need. Mix in that legato you're working on and you could play practically anything.

Take care.

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by kris

some phrases I play faster without pick...with pick it is impossible to play them.

you still use two hands, no?

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 12:48 PM

Not exactly true. Eric can easily play phrases with 16th notes at 200 all picked. Check out Troy Grady for details. And in terms of what *I* need to be able to do to play what *I* want to play, thanks for the advice but I will trust my own vision.

Originally Posted by vintagelove

i'll start by saying you're as good a picker as you need to be.

The question boils down to does the phrase use an odd or even number of notes per string.

Just so you know I'm not talking out of my.... I have posted videos here demonstrating what are the practical limits of alternate picking. If a phrase contains an even number of notes, the limit is around 200bpm. If a phrase has odd numbers of notes, the limit is around 170. When you mix in Ho/po with your picks, that's when you achieve that "blur".

So your teacher was pretty close, unless you're playing lines specifically to be played at 200. Eric Johnson picks nowhere near 200. What he does is shape his picked notes and legato notes so they sound extremely similar. 99% of them are either mixing in legato, or playing even groupings on each string so that they avoid outside picking.

Again, I still think you have all the picking technique you need. Mix in that legato you're working on and you could play practically anything.

Take care.

**kris** · 03-05-2016, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

you still use two hands, no?

Ofcourse but I have better right hand fingers technique after classic guitar studing.
some of my lines I can not play with the pick...I thin it need a lot of work...:-)

**vintagelove** · 03-05-2016, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Not exactly true. Eric can easily play phrases with 16th notes at 200 all picked. Check out Troy Grady for details. And in terms of what *I* need to be able to do to play what *I* want to play, thanks for the advice but I will trust my own vision.

Sure he may play a specific line at 200, but I have never seen him play 3 notes per string alternate picked across multiple strings at near 200.

I invite you to look closely at what he is playing, it conforms exactly to what I stated.

Just offering a compliment to your playing...

I thought you might appreciate advice from someone who can do (and posted it here) what you're asking advice on.

**ginod** · 03-05-2016, 05:41 PM

It really depends on the line. If i have a Line, where i have less changing in pick slanting or a constant number of notes per string, than i have no problem to pick over 200 bpm. If i have a Line with many changes in notes per string, where i have to change between pick slanting or changing between sweeping and alternate picking, its really hard to pick very clean in this kind of tempo. Upward Pickslanting works a little bit faster than downward. I don't know why

**AlsoRan** · 03-05-2016, 06:21 PM

Someone posted this on another older thread. Note Johnny Smith's really fast line at around 1:09 or so.

That is what I want to be able to add to my solos. I mainly try to use them as fills here and there like I have heard others do.

**dingusmingus** · 03-05-2016, 09:44 PM

This conversation is hilarious to me because I'm working very hard to play 8th notes at 200!

**jzucker** · 03-05-2016, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by dingusmingus

This conversation is hilarious to me because I'm working very hard to play 8th notes at 200!

we all have to start somewhere. When I went to the university of miami, the teacher i studied with - Randall Dollahan - didn't like the fact that I played without resting my finger on the pickguard so he had me touch my finger down ala al dimeola who was the current "flavor" at the school at that time.

I remember my first year there struggling to play 8th 16th notes at 120. I still play with my finger touching down but I wish he had left me the heck alone!

**jzucker** · 03-06-2016, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by ginod

It really depends on the line. If i have a Line, where i have less changing in pick slanting or a constant number of notes per string, than i have no problem to pick over 200 bpm. If i have a Line with many changes in notes per string, where i have to change between pick slanting or changing between sweeping and alternate picking, its really hard to pick very clean in this kind of tempo. Upward Pickslanting works a little bit faster than downward. I don't know why

are you taking 8th notes at 200 or 16th notes? If 16th notes, please demonstrate.

**ginod** · 03-06-2016, 03:02 PM

I mean 16th notes. I make a video

thats all you get :-D . No Music just show

**vintagelove** · 03-06-2016, 04:28 PM

I found the picking vids (but I don't have a YouTube account). If anyone is interested in seeing them. Pm me your email and I'll send them over. They include demos of the practical limitations of alternate picking (3 nps around 170, 4nps at 200) as well as a lesson that is Imo, the single best picking exercise you can do to improve your cross string alternate picking.

Btw I don't say a single word about how to hold the pick, slant angle, etc. There are simply too many amazing pickers using all sorts of variations in their grip. The bottom line, if you put in the work, you'll achieve the results.

**jzucker** · 03-06-2016, 07:16 PM

Sounds more like 180 but i'm talking about playing jazz and/or blues lines across the neck, not 4 note per string chromatic tones.

Originally Posted by ginod

I mean 16th notes. I make a video

thats all you get :-D . No Music just show

**ginod** · 03-06-2016, 07:39 PM

Ok first -- ehmm. no sorry its 200 bpm 16ths, doesn't matter what it sounds to you :-D.
Like i said. It depends on the Line. I didn't say that i can play everything on 200 bpm. If the line has many string changes or pick slanting changes, its harder than playing even number of notes per String.
Same if there a many chord changes to outline then. For me i wanted only show a technical example, which shows that 16th in 200 bpm is not such a big thing in some cases, if the line works with it.

But i don't know many guitar player who play 16th on 200 bpm and still playing in a melodic way, most of the time it has a "shredy" effect. Also players like Russell Malone who played up 200 bpm 16th lines, sounds shreddy when he do this.