Working on 16th notes at 190bpm

[sunnysideup]

There are a quite few things I dont get about this thread.

Jack - the teacher you referred to in your first post was a bad influence; we all thought faster was better in those days - remember?

It's easy to play fast and fluent on sax, guitar is a different instrument. I never heard a sax player saying s/he wanted to play like a guitarist, and why the hell should a guitarist want to play like a sax player. Kenny Burrell is the only guitarist I know of who recorded with Coltrane (ok albeit the "easy" mid-period), and did he copy JC - did he f***, he maintained his usual reserved dignity.

Eric Johnson may play fast; but please listen to the harmonic development in his playing - is there any? ( IMESFHumble opinion not; to compare him in any way to JC is a criminal offence.)

And as for Guthrie Govan, Vlad's synopsis is polite!

The best solo ever played on Donna (IMESFHumble opinion) was Miles when he worked for Parker - he did 2 or 3 choruses (on what must surely be the most ugly head in bop). Miles played less notes as he got older (and not bcs he was sick) - his tone went to a magic place, and he threw away the notes that didn't mean anything.

OK, now I get the thread, it's in the technique section - playing fast ;-)

[sunnysideup]

Well Jack, whatever your first teacher told you a long time ago was a long time ago. I don't know about you, but my thinking and approach to playing has evolved a lot over the years.

Kenny Burrell is the only guitarist that I know of who recorded with Coltrane. Although Wes idolised Coltrane he didn't have the opportunity to record with him, and my understanding is that he never had the chance to play with him at all. And anyway, as I mentioned before, that was before JC's SOS period.

Different instruments lend themselves to different approaches obviously. What may be easy on the guitar may be hard on the sax and vice versa; they have different limitations. I played tenor and guitar concurrently for a few years (well not exactly at the same time!), but it shouldn't be necessary to do that to understand what I'm saying (and I'm sure you do understand what I'm saying). And yes, I do understand what legato means, thanks Jack.

I've often heard guitar players say they want to sound more like sax players, I think they believe that somehow it makes them more authentic as jazz musicians; but I've never heard a sax player saying s/he wanted to sound like a guitarist. If they're that worried about it why don't they just change instruments? Or maybe their prior style really did need loosening up a bit?

Re what you said about your critic on this forum: the sound quality on the video that you reposted from 2007/8 (I forget the actual year you mentioned) isn't clear enough for me to hear what you are doing, but in general the clips you've made seem to be about demonstrating technique rather than music. I think that the study groups and threads on this forum should be (and are) about creating a supportive environment; but it also seems reasonable to me that people who use the general threads to post clips which are connected to their businesses should expect a more critical appraisal.

I haven't heard a lot of Eric Johnson, but what I have heard doesn't inspire me to want to hear more, let alone transcribe.

By the way, congratulations on your recovery - an injury like that is really traumatic for any musician,

cheers.

[coolvinny]

The only guitarist Coltrane recorded with was Kenny Burrell. Great album.

I can't believe you even paid attention to anyone criticizing that clip! Great playing.

[sgcim]

Such a seemingly easy lick, however, a tiny percentage of players can do this fast and clean

If you're talking about DL, even a lot of horn players have problems doing that. As we were driving home from a gig we played yesterday, a sax player friend of mine said he could still only play the first part, and he's been playing for over 50 years.
The OP didn't play the head to DL on that video, but he was playing at only about 139 (or 278)bpm, and some players play it much faster than that.
On the LP "Side By Side" by Phil Woods and Richie Cole, they play it at 176 (or 352bpm), and PW buries poor Cole on it.
I practice the head and blow on it every day at 160 (320) bpm, but I'd be lying if I said it came out perfectly clean every time I played it on an archtop. Solid bodies use thinner strings and have less string tension, so I don't have problems with it on that type of axe.
Barry Galbraith had a way of fingering it that eliminates a lot of the problems that other fingerings cause, but it still doesn't make it easier to play at tempos above 160 on an archie for me, anyway.

[whiskey02]

Jack that Donna Lee was F'n fantastic! A few folks may have cried to themselves upon hearing it but no guitar player could laugh at that performance. People lash out when they feel threatened, petty insignificant people, that is.

[jzucker]

thanks for the kind words folks.

[jazzimprov]

Agree that it is weird that there would be negative responses from people about the video....

.......great playin' man.

[sunnysideup]

It's fast but not very musical, that's my point. There's very very very little change in the dynamics of what Jack is doing - frankly it's monotonous. Technique should be at the service of the music, not a goal in itself.

I was going to post a clip of JP in '85 taking the mick out of young guys who are only interested in speed, but why bother - none of you are young! Just immature ;-)

The concept of shredding in jazz is just daft. Jazz is about harmonic development. It's about the notes you play, and the notes you leave out, not how many you can cram in.

Plenty of shredding forums if that's what you want.

One of the earlier comments was about attaining speeds as fast as "humanly possible"! This is just ludicrous (no disrespect to the presumably young guy that said it). Take up weight-lifting or sprinting if that's your goal.

Or take a leaf out of Les Paul's book - just speed up the recordings.

Jazz is not a competitive sport, a speed sport, or an endurance sport. It's an art form.

You have great technique Jack, but your playing seems to come from your fingers not your mind. This may be unfair, because as I said before, your clips usually aim to demonstrate technique. I have never seen a clip of yours which is aimed at expressing music; I'd like to.

[vintagelove]

It's fast but not very musical, that's my point. There's very very very little change in the dynamics of what Jack is doing - frankly it's monotonous. Technique should be at the service of the music, not a goal in itself.

I was going to post a clip of JP in '85 taking the mick out of young guys who are only interested in speed, but why bother - none of you are young! Just immature ;-)

The concept of shredding in jazz is just daft. Jazz is about harmonic development. It's about the notes you play, and the notes you leave out, not how many you can cram in.

Plenty of shredding forums if that's what you want.

One of the earlier comments was about attaining speeds as fast as "humanly possible"! This is just ludicrous (no disrespect to the presumably young guy that said it). Take up weight-lifting or sprinting if that's your goal.

Or take a leaf out of Les Paul's book - just speed up the recordings.

Jazz is not a competitive sport, a speed sport, or an endurance sport. It's an art form.

You have great technique Jack, but your playing seems to come from your fingers not your mind. This may be unfair, because as I said before, your clips usually aim to demonstrate technique. I have never seen a clip of yours which is aimed at expressing music; I'd like to.

Ever consider the music he hears in his head is different from what you hear?


I would love to hear your version which would include the following (everything you criticized).

very musical
very very much change in dynamics, making it un-monotonous
technique that services the music, not itself
apparently it has to feature harmonic development, because it's all about the notes you play, and leave out, but not the ones that are crammed in.




P.S. Pretty sure playing bebop, especially back in the day, was competitive, and requires lots of speed and endurance, so....

[Nate Miller]

I think vintage love is right. We need to hear a clip of Sunnyside playing. I just searched the showcase forum and could not find a single one

[jazzimprov]

Tunes like Donna Lee, Cherokee, Giant Steps, Countdown etc.... are not geared towards musicality,

....not that you can't spread things out over several bars to be more musical, but the nature of tunes like that tend to be a study in making the changes at fast tempos. --cutting your teeth kind of tune....
There is a reason why people call these tunes when people go to sit in, and it is not to see how musical you are.

Now if every tune (ballad or fast) sounded like that,(although that would still be a judgment call) then yeah, that would show a lack of musicality or more specifically, how to use rhythm, but looking at this one video, it seems to me like it is played the way it was designed to be played.

Now what was so great about Miles was the weight you felt with each note
You felt the harmony and the time.
Mile's solo's can be almost comically simple when you actually look at them on paper.
Because there is so much missing when you just look at the notes.


To be fair to Sunnyside, you don't have to 'outplay' the person you are critiquing to make a point about that person's playing, even if Sunnyside were to have some of the same characteristics he is criticizing.

[jasaco]

... besides, it can be just plain FUN to play like that sometimes; like a running racehorse, feeling the breeze in your hair... To be able to make the changes at speed can feel very good. Might or might not be the most "musical"; that depends on how comfortable you are at that speed and whether you have some bandwidth left for musicality after execution of chops. That's ok; that's just taking it up another level toward consummate artistry.

Yeah, jazz (or any music) doesn't have to be about speed, but it sometimes can be about speed and, if done well, there's nothing wrong with that, especially if it's not done totally at the expense of the other musical elements (e.g. pentatonic shredding over Stella ain't gonna cut it with me...)

As for me, I'm about halfway there! I can already play eighth notes at 190bpm!

[mr. beaumont]

Appears sunnyside has been banned.

Wonder if he was told to "grab your coat, and get your hat?"

[vintagelove]

My real point was his criticism amounted to, I didn't like that...

totally ok to say, I didn't like the chromatic line at xxxx, the notes don't have anything to do with the chords...

you are ahead or behind the beat... Etc... However that's not what he did.

Critcizing with, you shouldn't play fast just to be fast, ignores the fact that

THATS HOW HE WANTED TO PLAY IT!!!!!

[princeplanet]

Someone posted this on another older thread. Note Johnny Smith's really fast line at around 1:09 or so.

That is what I want to be able to add to my solos. I mainly try to use them as fills here and there like I have heard others do.

Haven't listened to much Johnny Smith, but when I do I'm usually disappointed. He gets billed by so many as having the cleanest technique ever on the instrument, but I don't hear it. He sounds kinda messy on this and ends his phrases rather unconvincingly. Can someone point me to the good examples of his playing?

These days there are hundreds of unknown bedroom players showing their speedy technique on Youtube, like this guy:

Note the economy employed with both hands. Try playing this with 3 fingers! (might also post this in the "3 finger" thread...)

[oriloco]

hi.... if you still have the videos I'm interested..... oriloco@gmail.com

[Robertkoa]

we all have to start somewhere. When I went to the university of miami, the teacher i studied with - Randall Dollahan - didn't like the fact that I played without resting my finger on the pickguard so he had me touch my finger down ala al dimeola who was the current "flavor" at the school at that time.

I remember my first year there struggling to play 8th 16th notes at 120. I still play with my finger touching down but I wish he had left me the heck alone!

Ha... I used to hear Randall do some amazing stuff as a Jazzer playing in a R&B /Funk Band called
'Kepler' doing great Solos and amazing comping in that Music- but he was not going to be one to show you how to play like DiMeola if DiMeola swung like a straight Jazzer....
He was very fluid and creative...but didn't seem to care or need to burn...

[FuseHead]

After reading through this thread some, It is probably good there are not a lot of comments in the Showcase section on this forum.