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12-16-2015 02:26 PM
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Back when Pat and the other legends started playing there wasn't towering stacks of guitar books, internet, videos, schools, they learn by ear and developed technique based on what worked for them and again the ear saying the notes are coming out good. Today so many are afraid and feel then need to do the approved method or approach, they look at playing too scientifically and not artistically enough. That's an advantage of the traditional instruments like violin, piano, etc, they've had hundreds of years of refining how the instruments are taught so for learning the mechanical side there is an approach. When I was at GIT in the Jurassic era Howard Roberts talked about this how the electric guitar (at the time) was about fifty years old and there is no refined method or literature for it. So at GIT and even today teacher will say try this, but in the end do what works for you.
Also back when Jeff Beck used a pick it favored up picking also.
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If I had just plunked the sheet music down in front of me, I'd have naturally played the tune using (mostly) alternating strokes. I was surprised to see Pat play it with mostly downstrokes but while watching it I realized that this was a great way to get his beautiful consistency of tone between the notes of an arpeggiated arrangement like this. It probably would have never occurred to me to try it his way.
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It's remarkable how few upstrokes he used in that. Great view of his right hand in action. Thanks!
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Thanks for this. I always thought that pat was a stone alternate picker so this comes as a surprise.
Tbh the more I get into this, the more I start to think alternate pickers are a minority in jazz. The downstroke thing is very big with players... I do think downstrokes are much better for feel, I tend to use lots of downstrokes myself, due to the influence of gypsy jazz, but it's interesting to see how prevalent it is with electric archtop players too...
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It's a beautiful piece, too. I noticed he doesn't do the full down stroke, resting on the next string. And the pinkie doesn't touch the scratchplate. The only time he alternates is in the scale run.
What a great musician he is!
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It is interesting. I wonder if it is different for younger players, to whom alternate picking was stressed from the get-go....
Originally Posted by christianm77
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Parts of it is he's crossing strings so much and common approach people use when crossing string always start with a downstroke. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I guess it is common enough but it's not how I learned. I remember Mickey Baker's first book stressing alternate picking for everything. (I don't know that he played that way, but he encouraged students to.) Lately I'm playing a lot of 7th arpeggios (-Richie Zellon's bebop course, Module 1) and I notice I tend to alternate pick them rather than sweep them. ( Originally Posted by docbop
When I tried to learn sweep picking, I really struggled. I can do it with a simple phrase and when I'm thinking about it, but soon as I stop thinking, I pretty much alternate pick everything. Old habits die hard...
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Lots of approaches I was checking out Miles Okazaki either his book or a video he is all about picking efficiently and setting up picking to minimize movement. Theory is the less you have to move the more you can relax and faster you can play. So if playing two notes on a string and then there is a string skip you'd start with an up pick so second note is a down pick and string skip is another down pick.
Oh BTW your buddy J.C. Styles is at Smalls tonight the 10:30 EST show.
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Yeah, Jimmy Bruno talks about picking efficiently. (He doesn't like the term "sweep" picking.) He also talks about how hard it is for people who have been doing alternate picking (only) for years to learn it. Originally Posted by docbop
Now that my picking is better, I might take out his "Art of Picking" and see if I get further into it this time.
J.C. has got it going on----would love to see him live.
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Pat talks about his use of all downstrokes on his Creative Force videos/DVD.
He plays an exquisite solo piece on one of those called "Country Road" ....which
conjures just that feeling.
He described his use of the predominantly triadic harmony in the piece as being for his own private
moments of music making.
So there is a sense of reflection to it.
With regard to the downpicks he used almost exclusively through that piece, he commented that he
found that by using only downpicks he could have more control over which voices he gives more
weight to....And the extent that he achieves this balance is remarkable for even a fingerstyle player
let alone a flatpicker using all downstrokes.
He makes it seem effortless when you watch him....but when you attempt the [good] transcription that comes with
the package, you will most likely be brought to a quick realization that there is a long country road to be traversed
to be able to perform that piece or something in that arpeggiated texture with a melody on top,chord tones on
the inside and moving basslines.
My impression is that he evolved this approach for unaccompanied pieces ...."Both Sides Now" from Conciousness
would be the best known of these.
Apart from this his right hand is floating and he predominantly alternate picks.
Believe me I've studied the man's playing in as many of its facets as it's possible to do without being
in front of him on a regular basis.
....I've had this borne out by one of my most successful and adept students who survived as a jazz guitarist
in NYC for some years....he found that Pat was teaching him pretty much what we'd been studying in
li'l old New Zealand.
To anyone who enjoyed the recent clip "Tradia" ....do search out the Country Road clip and see/hear what I mean.
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Good info. I always thought pat was an alternate guy. I'm agnostic as to whether it is possible to achieve the evenness of pats approach with downstroke heavy picking... Originally Posted by Moonray
To be honest I find myself alternate picking a lot more when playing electric...
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Makes me wonder what he had available in li'l old New Zealand! Originally Posted by Moonray
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Ha.....what we have is top secret
Mostly what we have is a huge distance between us and "the rest of the world".
Therefore you have to dig out every nugget of intel you can from whatever source
Concerts from overseas artists at the top of their game are few and far between too.
.....but you treasure those times and any opportunity to meet or even hang with the artists
are just golden.
Then you go back to the shed.....to think on what you've experienced and decide if any of it
could find a place in your approach.
The quieter lifestyle allows for a bit more contemplation time.
But mainly .....it's the old story of being an autodidact ....and keeping the BS filter on.
I could drop names of some people who are legends in the jazz and wider music field but that would
not be very seemly, however since I chimed in about Pat Martino ....[I refer to him as "Big Pat" ha ha]
I am eternally disappointed that together with a well connected and well heeled student we narrowly failed
to get Pat to visit NZ to perform at the International Festival of the Arts.
We were in negotiations with him and his agent but the Festival committee wouldn't buy it.
Oh well.......as Peter Green once sang.
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Check out in the video around 1:35, he seems to switch to alternate picking for the single note run.
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