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  1. #1

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    I'm currently working on focusing on arpeggios so that I can hit chord tones in my playing more. I learned scales as three notes per string many years ago, so that's my foundation for how I visualize the fretboard. I figure the 3NPS approach is less favorable here, but hoping to get insight for players that do use it.

    I am interested in how players that use 3NPS approach are visualizing/playing arpeggios on the neck. Do people learn arpeggio positions within all 7 positions (which I guess consequentially would involve a range of up to 5 adjacent frets)? Or do you use the 5 (CAGED) positions for arpeggios, and just use 3NPS scales to 'fill in' notes between arpeggios?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I'm 3NP player. Have been since I was s kid. I map my arpeggios to the scale patterns. CAGED is a bad word around these parts.

  4. #3

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    Two things I practice playing scales in arpts to see all the arp's within a scale, then the II-V-I in arpeggios for each scale fingering and after awhile they just become embedded in your head. Alos I try to learn scale patterns by the scale degrees each dot on the grid represents, so easy to think I want an arp from the II or III or etc and go from there.

    Key is learning arpeggios shapes independent of scale fingerings they end up being one in the same, but if you know by arp shapes you can start an arp from anywhere.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevehollx View Post
    I'm currently working on focusing on arpeggios so that I can hit chord tones in my playing more. I learned scales as three notes per string many years ago, so that's my foundation for how I visualize the fretboard. I figure the 3NPS approach is less favorable here, but hoping to get insight for players that do use it.

    I am interested in how players that use 3NPS approach are visualizing/playing arpeggios on the neck. Do people learn arpeggio positions within all 7 positions (which I guess consequentially would involve a range of up to 5 adjacent frets)? Or do you use the 5 (CAGED) positions for arpeggios, and just use 3NPS scales to 'fill in' notes between arpeggios?
    From what I've read in past discussions here, I think there may be more than one 3NPS system out there. The 3NPS approach I learned is from my teacher Warren Nunes. In it are 7 patterns that are built from each note of the major scale. Within each pattern are 4 arpeggios stacked vertically, so for example Pattern 1 in F starting from the 6th string contains Am7 (iiim7), from the 5th string is Dm7 (vim7), from the 4th string is Gm7 (iim7), and from the 3rd string is C7 (V7) arpeggios. Pattern 2 contains BbMa7 (IVma7), Em7-5 (viim7-5), Am7 (iiim7), and Dm7 (vim7) arpeggios, and so on... It might be hard to visualize this without a diagram, I'll see what I can dig up and post it for better clarity. The 3NPS patterns and arpeggio stacks are flip sides of the same coin, they work hand in hand, you use one to access the other. That's it in a very small nutshell...

    Before 3NPS, I learned the CAGED approach and still use them in certain instances, but mostly of my playing nowadays is based on the 3NPS approach. One thing I noticed with CAGED was I tended to stay locked in position and played more vertically, whereas with 3NPS I'm able to play more horizontally because of the way the patterns and arpeggios interconnect to each other

    ~Eddie
    Last edited by EddieLastra; 12-06-2015 at 04:03 AM.

  6. #5

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    I am not a 3NPS player but it seems only logical to me that arpeggios, triads and 4 note chords, played within two strings is already in your arsenal of knowledge and technique.
    Ignorance is agony.



  7. #6

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    I find the 3nps system the best and most complete system as it maps all of the possibilities on the fretboard.

    How I visualize arpeggios depends on which one it is, where I'm coming from and going to. That being said, just start playing the chords off each note. Almost all of it is overlapping, iow you'll use the same shapes over and over.

  8. #7

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    I studied with Warren Nunes too. That's where I got my #NPS. I don't see how there can be another. That just works out systematically perfect. 7 Patterns. I did not get the arpeggios from Warren though. He taught in a class situation. I went for a year or two straight, but there was actually very little instruction. A lot of playing, which was better in a sense.

    But I designed the arpeggios to go hand in glove with the Scale Patterns. 7 arpeggios for each pattern. But once you learned all 7 Major, minor and diminished triad arpeggios, you didn't have to learn any more. They all fit in each of the scale patterns. Same for the 7ths of course.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    I studied with Warren Nunes too. That's where I got my #NPS. I don't see how there can be another. That just works out systematically perfect. 7 Patterns. I did not get the arpeggios from Warren though. He taught in a class situation. I went for a year or two straight, but there was actually very little instruction. A lot of playing, which was better in a sense.

    But I designed the arpeggios to go hand in glove with the Scale Patterns. 7 arpeggios for each pattern. But once you learned all 7 Major, minor and diminished triad arpeggios, you didn't have to learn any more. They all fit in each of the scale patterns. Same for the 7ths of course.

    I've never studied a 7 pattern system with anyone, for awhile I came up with one on my own but that was just a phase. Can you point me to a refence page or something to check the patterns out.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    I've never studied a 7 pattern system with anyone, for awhile I came up with one on my own but that was just a phase. Can you point me to a refence page or something to check the patterns out.

    There is thread here called 5 vs 7 positions, it has some great info. Fwiw there are different 7 position systems. I prefer shifting on the b string, but they all accomplish the same thing. One giant grid.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    I've never studied a 7 pattern system with anyone, for awhile I came up with one on my own but that was just a phase. Can you point me to a refence page or something to check the patterns out.

    Here's a diagram of the 7 pattern 3NPS system I learned from Warren Nunes.

    This is in the key of F

    For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-7-patterns-f-jpg

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    Here's a diagram of the 7 pattern 3NPS system I learned from Warren Nunes.

    This is in the key of F

    For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-7-patterns-f-jpg

    Cool thanks!
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  13. #12

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    Beat me to it. But anyway, here it is from me. The same really. The 7 Major Scale Patterns | Henry Robinett Guitar Lessons

    I just want to note there is a mistake on Pattern III. The first string shows fingering 1-3-4. It should be 1-2-4!
    Attached Images Attached Images For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-7-major-scale-patterns-jpg 
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 03-30-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett View Post
    Beat me to it. But anyway, here it is from me. The same really.
    Thanks Henry I remove the patterns so the website doesn't start looking like Buddy Guys guitar closet.

    I can see the advantage of some of those compare to the others that just go straight across only give you a preplaned shift point for combining patterns. Versus my I know the neighborhood I'll get there method.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  15. #14

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    As I mentioned in post #4, here is the arpeggio stack that is embedded in pattern #1

    Highlighted in red


    For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-pattern-1-arpeggio-stack-jpg

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    As I mentioned in post #4, here is the arpeggio stack that is embedded in pattern #1

    Highlighted in red


    For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-pattern-1-arpeggio-stack-jpg


    There are arpeggios off of each note in each position.

    Great excercise

    1357 2461 3572 etc
    1357 8642 3572 etc

  17. #16

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    Put together a quick and simple on one way to use the arpeggio stack and notes of F pattern 1 to outline a Gm7-C7-Fma7 change.

    excuse the video and audio as it's just my smartphone camera

    ~Eddie



  18. #17

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    I don't strictly use a 3 notes per string method, but it is one method I've employed for decades. There are advantages to playing arps going up the neck, like covering more territory and playing more notes per string. The disadvantage is possibly getting lost while changing positions lol.

    I like to look at each octave as a starting point. i.e.
    G, 6th string, 3rd fret
    G 4th string, 5th fret
    G, 2nd string, 8th fret.

    Playing the basic 3 chord tones at each position play one note on the first string and two notes on the next. Then jump to the next octave and repeat.

    4 note arps can be done with two notes per string which is easier to manage because the fingers naturally climb of the neck. Descending is a little more difficult, especially with the 3 note arps.

  19. #18

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    I think of the arpeggios as this. I see them throughout the scale patterns. In this Major Triad example they reach all the way inside each scale pattern so you know instantly what note is what. I found it less useful, for me, to look at them as just root, 3, 5 and up.

    This is the key of C. The first, for example, is 1 chord (tonic) #4 scale pattern.
    Attached Images Attached Images For the 3 note-per-string players--how do you visualize arpeggios?-major-triad-arpeggios-jpg 
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d View Post
    4 note arps can be done with two notes per string which is easier to manage because the fingers naturally climb of the neck. Descending is a little more difficult, especially with the 3 note arps.
    Playing triads/arpeggios on 2 strings is what Warren would refer to as 'splitting the triad' and yes it definitely opens the way for moving horizontally on the neck to access the neighboring patterns. What I've come to understand are that triads are the gateway to accessing good notes through the vertical, horizontal, and diagonal planes on the neck. The 4th note that turns the triad into an arpeggio is a connecting point to another note grouping, be it another triad/arpeggio or scale tones

  21. #20

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    I like the Johnny Smith booklet, which presents arpeggios and scales across three octaves (shifting across multiple positions). It doesn't say anything about positions but I think it's aligned with CAGED. I'm a keyboardist first and only a novice guitarist, learned my scales using CAGED, and Johnny Smith isn't giving me any problems. If he's using 7 positions I'm just oblivious.

    It does require that you can read standard notation though.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDee62 View Post
    I like the Johnny Smith booklet, which presents arpeggios and scales across three octaves (shifting across multiple positions). It doesn't say anything about positions but I think it's aligned with CAGED. I'm a keyboardist first and only a novice guitarist, learned my scales using CAGED, and Johnny Smith isn't giving me any problems. If he's using 7 positions I'm just oblivious.

    It does require that you can read standard notation though.

    Was that the book where he wrote out the notation in grand staff, the upper register notes are in the treble clef staff and the lower register notes are in the bass clef? Talk about sight reading skills, one staff is already a major reading challenge for me lol! Aside from that I recall it was quite a thorough book
    Last edited by EddieLastra; 12-10-2015 at 02:17 AM.

  23. #22

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    Johnny Smith, Aids to Technique for Guitar, think it was $10 on djangobooks.com

    All treble clef, no bass clef. Only 26 pages but very dense, covers all major and minor scales and arpeggios plus a bunch of other exercises (kinda similar to Hanon exercises for piano).

    I'm thinking I should have pretty decent mastery of the fretboard by the time I get through it.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDee62 View Post
    Johnny Smith, Aids to Technique for Guitar, think it was $10 on djangobooks.com

    All treble clef, no bass clef. Only 26 pages but very dense, covers all major and minor scales and arpeggios plus a bunch of other exercises (kinda similar to Hanon exercises for piano).

    I'm thinking I should have pretty decent mastery of the fretboard by the time I get through it.

    Thanks for sharing that info on Johnny Smith's book. I checked and it is available in eBook form from djangobooks.com. I did some quick research on that book and he published it way back in 1961.

    http://www.amazon.com/Johnny-Techniq.../dp/B007I6X62I

    I saw original copy at a book collector website listed for $150.

    The book I was talking about is this one that was published in 1980:

    http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Johnn...22392/ref=oosr

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    The book I was talking about is this one that was published in 1980:

    Mel Bay The Complete Johnny Smith Approach to Guitar: Johnny Smith: 9781562222390: Amazon.com: Books
    Did you read the reviews? Apparently not written by Johnny Smith.

    The one on djangobooks.com is one thing JS admits to having written himself. It's concise but deep, and an excellent use of $10 - particularly if you're working to master arpeggios.

    It may be several decades old, but most of the stuff I studied on piano was at least a *century* old. Perspective.

    Learned about it on this forum, what an excellent resource.
    Last edited by BigDee62; 12-10-2015 at 06:37 AM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDee62 View Post
    Did you read the reviews? Apparently not written by Johnny Smith.

    The one on djangobooks.com is one thing JS admits to having written himself. It's concise but deep, and an excellent use of $10 - particularly if you're working to master arpeggios.

    It may be several decades old, but most of the stuff I studied on piano was at least a *century* old. Perspective.

    Learned about it on this forum, what an excellent resource.

    Yes, I did read that, very odd and surprising that he actually let his name be used in the publication. I downloaded the ebook and looks to be some good useful stuff in there. The Mickey Baker jazz guitar book that many here still study was published back in the late 50's as well, something to say for old methods

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    The Mickey Baker jazz guitar book that many here still study was published back in the late 50's as well, something to say for old methods
    I have that one too.

    I'll get through the JS booklet in the next few months. The Baker book? I think he describes it as a year-long program of study, but that's only with some serious commitment. Daunting.

  28. #27
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    Put together a quick and simple on one way to use the arpeggio stack and notes of F pattern 1 to outline a Gm7-C7-Fma7 change.

    excuse the video and audio as it's just my smartphone camera

    ~Eddie


    Thank you for going to the trouble of making a video. I'm following this thread with interest, and I've enjoyed reading about Warren Nunes. Thank you to everyone contributing here.

    Returning to video (of which I wish there were more on the forum), I'd find it really helpful to have the 3nps scale and arpeggio fingerings demonstrated on video - slowly and clearly - but without a demonstration of their application within a harmonic context.

  29. #28

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    It think it a little odd that nobody has mentioned one of the biggest benefits to these 3nps scale patterns; while they can feel a little awkward initially ( I know I can rip through more traditional patterns faster, if just ripping a scale or fragment) they really lend themselves extremely well to chromatic and double chromatic approaches a la Charlie Banacos.
    Ignorance is agony.



  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskey02 View Post
    It think it a little odd that nobody has mentioned one of the biggest benefits to these 3nps scale patterns; while they can feel a little awkward initially ( I know I can rip through more traditional patterns faster, if just ripping a scale or fragment) they really lend themselves extremely well to chromatic and double chromatic approaches a la Charlie Banacos.
    Probably because the replies thus far have been to the OP's original inquiry of "how 3NPS players visualize and play 'arpeggios' using the 3NPS approach"

    No doubt to me that the 3NPS lends well to scalar approaches. I don't know anything about Charlie Banacos, but I can say I've seen Warren Nunes play some incredibly fast and clean bebop lines with this 3NPS approach. But then on the other hand, I've seen Paco de Lucia play some incredibly fast and clean flamenco lines with the CAGED approach

    It would be great if you could post up an example of the Charlie Banacos chromatic approach in use with the 3NPS structure, I'd definitely be interested in seeing some of that
    Last edited by EddieLastra; 12-11-2015 at 07:01 AM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    Returning to video (of which I wish there were more on the forum), I'd find it really helpful to have the 3nps scale and arpeggio fingerings demonstrated on video - slowly and clearly - but without a demonstration of their application within a harmonic context.
    hey destinytot,

    I can do that, I think it is within the topic of the thread. I'll post up something over the weekend, thanks for your interest

    ~Eddie

  32. #31

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    Tim Miller does really interesting things with 3nps! Here's an example:



    He also does some great things with 212121 arpeggios. I couldn't however find a YouTube example.
    Last edited by srlank; 12-12-2015 at 09:12 PM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    Playing triads/arpeggios on 2 strings is what Warren would refer to as 'splitting the triad' and yes it definitely opens the way for moving horizontally on the neck to access the neighboring patterns. What I've come to understand are that triads are the gateway to accessing good notes through the vertical, horizontal, and diagonal planes on the neck. The 4th note that turns the triad into an arpeggio is a connecting point to another note grouping, be it another triad/arpeggio or scale tones
    (my use of bold)
    Very interesting post and thread!

  34. #33
    Lots of great suggestion here, thanks everyone! Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems few people gives importance to single string horizontal studies. I found them to be quite useful. Anyway, I use a bunch of different concepts regarding the study of scales and arpeggios, most of them involve also visualizing lots of chord shapes and the various intervals in them, trying to escape from seeing things just in thirds and seconds. But when it comes to simple visualization of scales and arpeggio here's some of my work on it. Hope it can be useful. I split the fretboard in 12 groups of 5 frets. I know it's a bit redundant, but every small difference helps you invision a different place to go. At least I find it useful. But at the end of the day this is just the tip of the iceberg, and I think more horizontal shapes help move around smoother. Here's a link if you're interested! Cheers!



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  35. #34
    completeCmaj7 - Jumpshare


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  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by AurelioTarallo View Post
    completeCmaj7 - Jumpshare

    This is just relative to a Cmaj7, I've done the same for each chord in the major scale

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  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    The 3NPS approach I learned is from my teacher Warren Nunes. In it are 7 patterns that are built from each note of the major scale. Within each pattern are 4 arpeggios stacked vertically, so for example Pattern 1 in F starting from the 6th string contains Am7 (iiim7), from the 5th string is Dm7 (vim7), from the 4th string is Gm7 (iim7), and from the 3rd string is C7 (V7) arpeggios. Pattern 2 contains BbMa7 (IVma7), Em7-5 (viim7-5), Am7 (iiim7), and Dm7 (vim7) arpeggios, and so on... It might be hard to visualize this without a diagram, I'll see what I can dig up and post it for better clarity. The 3NPS patterns and arpeggio stacks are flip sides of the same coin, they work hand in hand, you use one to access the other. That's it in a very small nutshell...
    Eddie, this sounds like what Steve Crowell teaches. I've heard he studied with Warren at some point. Maybe that's where he got it. Any familiarity with Steve's teaching material?
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  38. #37

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    As long as this excellent thread is being dusted off ...

    I studied with Warren for several years. I learned his 7 patterns. And I learned a lot of triads.

    But, I do not recall Warren talking about how the triads he used were embedded in the 7 patterns.

    Rather, it was my impression that he based his triad approach on his chord grips.

    In class, he often had a student play what he called "turnarounds", typically 2 5 3 6. And, he would use his system of type I and type II chords to juxtapose triads against chords. So, for example, he'd say "4 against 2" which in the key of C meant he'd play an F triad or maybe Fmaj7 against Dm7. He could play a different one for every chord and, afterward, tell you exactly what he'd done. I recorded the lessons and checked -- he was always right about every juxtaposition.

    So, it was my impression that he played out of triads and patterns. He mentioned melodic minor, diminished and WT sounds, but, as far as I can recall, he didn't detail how he used them.

    That might sound like he was harmonically limited. But, he could play a chord solo off the top of his head with incredible reharmonization. Then, when you asked him to go over it so you could learn it, he'd play a completely different one, just as good.
    So, for all the stuff about patterns and triads, he also had great ears and a well-thought out approach to playing at very high speed.

  39. #38

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    I'm learning the 7 3-nps major scale fingerings. I worked with them years ago---I think it was a Frank Gambale book on 'speed picking' that introduced me to them---but I lost interest in the sound I associated with 3 nps players and went back to what I had been doing before.

    3 nps major scales are easier than I then realized. There are only 3 sets of notes:

    1 _ 2 _ 4
    1 2 _ 4
    1 _ 3 4

    (Numbers indicate finger used; _ indicates a fret skipped)

    Not only that, the patterns recur in the same order:
    1 _ 2 _ 4 may occur 3 times in a row. That's the most.
    1 2 _ 4 always follows the 1 _ 2 _ 4 and may occur twice in a row, no more.
    1 _ 3 4 always follows 1 _ 2 _ 4 and may occur twice in a row.
    Then the pattern repeats.

    Ordered the Steve Crowell books "84 Jazz Guitar Equations" and "Formulas for Jazz Guitar Improvisation." When I get the 3 nps fingerings down and get used to playing them in all keys, I should know the fretboard better and have should have refined my technique. We shall see...
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieLastra View Post
    One thing I noticed with CAGED was I tended to stay locked in position and played more vertically, whereas with 3NPS I'm able to play more horizontally because of the way the patterns and arpeggios interconnect to each other

    ~Eddie
    I find conflicting sources as to which of staying in one position or moving up and down the neck are properly called "vertical" or "horizontal"... maybe these have changed or become mixed up with time?
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln View Post
    I find conflicting sources as to which of staying in one position or moving up and down the neck are properly called "vertical" or "horizontal"... maybe these have changed or become mixed up with time?


    I've only ever seen horizontal referring to moving up and down the fingerboard and vertical referring to moving across the strings with little or no movement up and down the strings. Diagonal would be a combination of both.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by FwLineberry View Post
    I've only ever seen horizontal referring to moving up and down the fingerboard and vertical referring to moving across the strings with little or no movement up and down the strings. Diagonal would be a combination of both.
    That's my understanding. (Diagonal relates to horizontal---along the neck. Along means along the fretboard, as in from the 2nd to 8th fret or whatever, whereas vertical means the stack of strings at any one fret or small group of frets.

    If you play each string open, you are playing vertically. If you play each note on the high E string, you are playing horizontally.

    That's how I understand it.
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 09-08-2019 at 10:50 AM.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I'm learning the 7 3-nps major scale fingerings. I worked with them years ago---I think it was a Frank Gambale book on 'speed picking' that introduced me to them---but I lost interest in the sound I associated with 3 nps players and went back to what I had been doing before.

    3 nps major scales are easier than I then realized. There are only 3 sets of notes:

    1 _ 2 _ 4
    1 2 _ 4
    1 _ 3 4

    (Numbers indicate finger used; _ indicates a fret skipped)

    Not only that, the patterns recur in the same order:
    1 _ 2 _ 4 may occur 3 times in a row. That's the most.
    1 2 _ 4 always follows the 1 _ 2 _ 4 and may occur twice in a row, no more.
    1 _ 3 4 always follows 1 _ 2 _ 4 and may occur twice in a row.
    Then the pattern repeats.

    Ordered the Steve Crowell books "84 Jazz Guitar Equations" and "Formulas for Jazz Guitar Improvisation." When I get the 3 nps fingerings down and get used to playing them in all keys, I should know the fretboard better and have should have refined my technique. We shall see...
    Interesting way of looking at it. Of course that all changes with melodic minor or harmonic minor scales. And I remember Gambale giving lessons on the 7 melodic minor modes in Guitar Player magazine way back when. I just didn't feel a need to get into that back then.

  44. #43

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    The confusion of vertical/horizontal:

    If you think of vertical (up and down) it could be up and down the neck. But as you look down at the neck, vertical is across the strings. When someone like George Benson talks about playing vertically, he's talking the latter (up and down the strings). So up and down the neck is horizontal.

  45. #44
    Getting one's bearings on the neck is a significant undertaking. It's understandable to stake out your territory via a 'system', whether it's 3NPS, CAGED, Leavitt, Mick Goodrick's Unitar, etc. All are valid choices, and each has the potential to get you where you need to go. I do encourage folk that have spent time working on a particular system to pick a piece of music that wasn't conceived on the guitar ( a Sonny Rollins solo, a Bach Violin sonata) and work it up to performance level. That can answer some questions on how to organize arpeggio fingerings, and how neatly a real-world piece of music does or doesn't fit into a system. Best wishes for everyone's music!

    PK

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d View Post
    Interesting way of looking at it. Of course that all changes with melodic minor or harmonic minor scales.
    Yes, it would. Though there would be a pattern there too. There's a book called "The 50 String Guitar" (or something close) and its about patterns for the different kinds of scales. Don't have it handy to look at though.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  47. #46

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    I still use 3 notes per string for melodic and harmonic minor scales.


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  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby d View Post
    The confusion of vertical/horizontal:

    If you think of vertical (up and down) it could be up and down the neck. But as you look down at the neck, vertical is across the strings. When someone like George Benson talks about playing vertically, he's talking the latter (up and down the strings). So up and down the neck is horizontal.

    In Jazz, the vertical and horizontal terms had a non-direction meaning, more about distinguishing playing the "stack of chord tones" vertically vs playing "linear melodic" horizontally through the chords, neither meaning necessarily direction of pitch, nor mechanical direction upon the instrument, nor the orientation of the instrument with respect to the floor. It was really an abstract reference to the way a sequence of pitches moves with respect to their harmonic and melodic representation as notes within the score.

    Were the terms to describe this once sophisticated musical concept reduced to a pitch gradient, or a geometric orientation relative to the instrument, or the musical irrelevance of a local Earth surface gravitation vector?
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  49. #48

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    Interested to see there are some jazzers who use 3nps.

    I was under the impression most jazzers prefer scales starting on 2/4 finger?

  50. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Interested to see there are some jazzers who use 3nps.

    I was under the impression most jazzers prefer scales starting on 2/4 finger?
    Jens plays a lot of three NPS.

    Anyway, I'd imagine that you can basically start on whatever finger and still be within that "system". Most other fingerings are "almost three NPS" anyway?

    It's usually one string that has two I think .

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Interested to see there are some jazzers who use 3nps.

    I was under the impression most jazzers prefer scales starting on 2/4 finger?
    I have no idea what ANY other jazzers prefer. I learned them from jazzer Warren Nunes. They always made infinite sense to me. To be clear these start on 1st, 2nd or 4th fingers. Not the 3rd.


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