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I say if I was as good as David Gilmour I would not NEED to play fast...lol.
Originally Posted by blackcat
I am resigned to the fact that I will never know the neck as well or be as Musically Skilled overall in many ways as a Master Jazzer ...
But ....few of them can do crazy sheets of sound stuff across the strings like I am finally able to do...but I think it is more important to play accurately and in cool rhythmic groupings like Sax Players Do and guys like Benson so I am learning that ...swinging eighths seems to force me to slow down and is a cool sound when done right...even in other Forms/ Styles of Music.
My technique enables vertical playing and wide intervals with alternate picking so it is not just speed ( the arpeggios and shapes and wider intervals without changing gears,no sweeping, no economy, may be the best part the smooth rhythmic flow not the speed.)
I am trying to focus my technique into cool lines and vertical melodic stacks and rhythmic groupings and then relax and play some cool music not Standards but I will probably learn a few to Jam with the Heavyweight Jazz Guys ( lol).
I actually wrote a 6/8 Blues long ago to Jam with Jazz Guys from UM- but only now can I really solo over it well...
There are a LOT of heavyweight Jazz Guys who are not famous also.
To play really cool lines in Rhythm is harder than fast...and playing really pretty stuff is also difficult, rare and more meaningful and listenable in many ways.
Playing fast like Benson or Kriesburg or Eric Johnson without sounding angry or frustrated is pretty rare also...lol.
When Al DiMeola first came out..we had not heard that kind of speed often but it is common now...players known primarily for speed are usually musically weak-( I include myself in this criticism) Benson Eric Johnson and Jonathan Kriesburg and
Tommy Emmanuel have excellent speed but their musical ability is off the charts or at the Top.They would be great without it.
I think I could probably teach intermediate Players to be much much faster because I figured it out finally and am not not one of those gifted guys who was really excellent at 15 or 20 years old-
BUT - I don't think the speed would result in better music- it can be very annoying sometimes( including me lol)- there's much cooler things than speed...Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-24-2015 at 07:18 PM.
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11-24-2015 04:32 PM
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That's funny... I've heard that they changed the solo break in 'Money' to 4/4 because he couldn't solo in 7! Originally Posted by Jazzism
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That's part of Dave Gilmour's genius...
He knows his limits and makes music without ego. He describes himself as a 'limited guitar player' and he is right.
I would much rather hear him than an characterless virtuosos. Or any other 'limited guitar players' who know what their style is - Grant Green say. I mean even Allan Holdsworth is 'limited' right? You wouldn't want him playing a standard.
Anyway there's wisdom in knowing your strengths....
BTW don't confuse him with Dave Gilmore - quite a different player haha....
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Yngwie Malmsteen, for one. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
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Hmm: Originally Posted by christianm77
Allan Holdworth, "How Deep Is the Ocean" with Gordon Beck on keys
and on Nuages:
I wish I could get distortion to be that sweet and singing.
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I've seen Allan Holdsworth playing a gig to about 100 seated people a while back - so pretty close up. He used six Yamaha magic stomp pedals - three per stereo channel to get a sort of super smooth chorus reverb delay sound. Sat in front its pretty magical (excuse the pun). So your mission should you choose to take it, is to play stereo from now on and use three digital delays in series on each channel.
Allan Holdsworth's arpeggio sequences are amazing. Huge spreads of 7 and 8 frets and just about every alteration of chords you could imagine - no two run throughs of the chords of a song are the same. And all this seems to be swirling around the room in wide stereo. Its that sound you get from film backing tracks at the cinema - its mesmerising. I've never had another live music experience like it.
(They do say if you start playing stereo you never go back to mono)
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I would put DG as one of the greatest rock guitarist who never play a fast solo in his life
But his solos are all memorable...I grew up listening to Floyd and loved his playing!!!!!
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I think the one thing that many fast players miss ( I am addressing this in my playing) is that what I call the *"melodic cadences "should be similar or the same regardless of the speed and it sounds so much better with the longer notes at the "Cadence " points especially if playing faster.
*Not a musically accurate Term but great for understanding Improv.
-Just as you have a harmonic cadence / half Cadence / deceptive Cadence in the chords ( and there are different types of Cadences - not just Classical - like a common Rock Cadence is I - bVII-IV-I). Walter Piston calls this I -IV of IV- IV- I.
Imagine going up to Jam with some Jazz Heavyweights and instead of Rhythm Changes ..calling for " Sympathy for the Devil" Changes ...lol. Of course, they would have it in about 5 to 10 seconds - complete with an Intro..( how do they do that ?)
So in my little World you have a small Melodic Cadence at each chord and a larger melodic cadence at each chordal phrase ending.
Where you are in each chord and how you get there and especially your phrase endings which should ideally have some rest spots with longer note values etc. determine/ establish the Genre, Style of the Music.
Where and how you *" cadence"[ used incorrectly as a Verb] or Resolve your single line phrases denotes whether you are playing Jazz, Bebop,Inside, Outside , Blues, Rock, Metal, Irish Jigs, Polka etc etc.
When you play a Ballad at a slow Tempo with all long Note Values you must be much more careful because you must have only Chord Tones and Extensions ( a state of Constant Melodic Cadence)- because you can't hold , linger upon, a chromatic half step approach Tone.
The "Melodic Cadence" rule applies whether someone knows any theory or not- Bluegrass/ Blues / etc. who Play purely by ear still must use Melodic Cadences to fit the accepted Form just as they must use Harmonic Cadences ..etc.
So fast Players often don't milk the Chord Tones and extensions the way slower Players do- like Gilmour does so well.
Or Larry Carlton does for example.
There are exceptions though - if you listen to Eddie Van Halen's Solo on " Beat It" he's got some nice longer Notes in there and he's Rhythmically in the Pocket the whole time- if you changed the chords underneath a bit and had a Sax Player( Wayne Shorter-lol) do that exact Solo - it would sound like Jazz -right?
So I am rambling but if someone can play fast in Rhythm and mix it up and still slow way down and do Ballads and Slow Blues ( Larry Carlton Slow Blues= amazing ) then you get the Best of both Worlds.
Larry Carlton is kind of the Jazz Version of Gilmour and I think the Great Ones mix it up really well...not ruled by their own speed.
Almost all Sax Players are very fast by Guitar Standards and they mix up their Rhythms and do all types of intervallic Playing and lots of nice half notes and whole notes to offset the speed even when they are ripping through Phrases...
Guitar Players who really like to play fast tend to choose Notes that are easier to reach so we often get all close Intervals in fast Guitar Solos.
I think playing fast locked to the groove swinging eighths and sixteenths can sound great though even in non Jazz stuff (!)Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-25-2015 at 11:27 AM.
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Larry Carlton can play very fast, have you heard his song "Point it up" From room 335 album, I believe that's the name of the song
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Yes wayyy back in eighties I had a lot of his Cassettes (!) Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Carlton plays slowly often because he wants to and has such amazing phrasing and perfect bends - not because of limitations.
He does Classic and Epic , Perfect Solos which are Mini Songs in their own right...
Steely Dan , Christopher Cross, Hill Street Blues TV Theme etc. etc.
I am resigned to the fact that I will never, ever be
as good as Larry Carlton .
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Yes wayyy back in eighties I had a lot of his Cassettes (!) Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Carlton plays slowly often because he wants to and has such amazing phrasing and perfect bends - not because of limitations.
He does Classic and Epic , Perfect Solos which are Mini Songs in their own right...
Steely Dan , Christopher Cross, Hill Street Blues TV Theme etc. etc.
I am resigned to the fact that I will never, ever be
as good as Larry Carlton .
Pretty sure it's Larry Carlton on Christopher Cross "Ride Like the Wind" a great, burning still tasteful Fusion Solo on a Pop Record.
Some Credits say it's Cross himself but sounds like LC to me.Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-25-2015 at 12:23 PM.
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You and 99.9 % of all guitarplayers won't be Larry Carlton...although people do get a lot better much quicker these days with the internet...When I was a kid to learn a solo or song I had to put needle to record, now you can just find it already transcribed on youtube or some other place online. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Yes. To be honest I have more technique as far as speed and playing across the strings in triplets, sextuplets and can physically do more or something and blah blah blah but I am not Musically as good as you say I think it may be more like one in a 100, 000 who can create Classic Solos like Carlton and he was one of the first to use sustaining Blues/ Rock Tones on Pop Records etc. in addition to his eloquence. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Now- people will probably want to know how I pick etc. more than they ask him but that's just technical stuff..
And I only recently hit this technical point because of changes I made 3 years ago.
Most Great Guitarists are excellent at a young age..not the case for me..took forever to get to a very good technical level.
And I am far from great - I have to produce now ....Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-25-2015 at 04:03 PM.
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Not into Allan's standards stuff. Perhaps if it was produced differently I'd like it better.
Point stands even if you like his standards stuff. Everyone has their strengths.... Allan didn't spend years shedding his alternate picking for example - he found his thing and developed it....
I sometimes think the best players are those that have chosen to ignore or work around their weaknesses and come up with something interesting as a result.
Time feel is the only thing in jazz guitar playing that seems to be an absolute must. In rock guitar it's acceptable to be rythmically less exact if there's other stuff that's great about what you do, but not in jazz... That said my favourite rock players have great time too, so maybe that's just what I'm into...
It takes a lot of self knowledge to cut out the background chatter and focus on what you want to do - even to recognise what it is that works best for you.
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PS most of us are resigned to the fact that we will never be as good as Larry c...
To be honest the more I learn the more I listen to other players and I am knocked out you all sorts of stuff while being painfully aware of shortcomings in my playing - I really enjoy it...
When I was a beginner I though I was a good player! Early arrogance...
On the other hand the guys at the top seem to be in perpetual awe of all the other top guitar players... It's not false modesty I think - it comes from having a really refined and appreciative ear. That's the hippest thing and you can't fake it.Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2015 at 06:33 PM.
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(BTW I do find the jock mentality applied to music absolutely hilarious when I come across it... Not pointing the finger here ... Just some young guys you come across. That's the way to burn out... you have to find the joy in the day to day practice and playing...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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That is amazing!
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Some excellent insights here - really useful thread. Am feeling better already.
It's not how fast you play, it's what you say... Ginger Baker
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It's actually Christopher cross playing that solo. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Might be - I saw a clip of him playing an Anderson on a live youtube clip and he played very well... Originally Posted by 55bar
The Midnight Special clip sounds a lot like the Record...may be a dubbed version there with a slightly different ending..Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-29-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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Not quite sure what any of that means. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
http://www.mixonline.com/news/classi...r-cross/425710
Paragraph 16
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Hmmm I quoted your post before you edited it.
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Lol. Originally Posted by christianm77
I am trying to get a " crash course " in Jazz to help create a kind of R&B Fusion - and I have already learned a lot - especially learning to "hard swing " in Solos which sounds really good in other Styles ( never realized this before).
Especially the "Harmonically Expanded R&B" and Latin stuff.
BUT when I Solo over ii - V - I 's and
ii- V`- i's -"hiding behind a stream of Notes"
(until I find some Chord Tones) is EXACTLY
what I am doing - your criticism above is right on..made me laugh.
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