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After last night's gig I had a conversation with our bass player and we both concluded that we can play much more advanced stuff when the volume is low. We came to that conclusion since we had a (very nice and succelsful) high-volume gig Saturday night and a very laid-back low volume restaurant gig the Sunday night after (busy weekend). The restaurant is a regular monthly gig where our drummer almost exclusively plays with brushes or hot rods for some songs and we bring our smallest amps (I bring my AER Alpha and I get there by bike) and we play at almost bedroom level not to be too loud for the restaurant. The acoustics in that room are great by the way, there's no unwanted reflections or absorptions and it's 'dry' without being sterile like some dampened rooms can be.
We found it quite ashtonishing how much more technical (faster, better chops, more refined and controlled, nice flowing lines) we could play on low volume when you can hear everything well and it's like you're rehearsing in the bedroom and you can hear all the nuances of your tone.
Does anybody recognize this? What do you guys do to gap the bridge in your playing (if any) between high and low volume situations?
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11-16-2015 11:03 AM
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That is something I found a while ago about myself too. When I play loud I can't really speed up as I do in more quiet situations. Also when I play loud I kinda lose technique. Because I like the mix of 70% acoustic and 30% electric tone, the trick to me to find that even in louder volumes is to crank the amp and use the volume control on the guitar mostly at 50% or more if it's really loud.
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I've thought this also.
Playing loud tends to impact dynamic range and hence I don't hear the more interesting things in my head laying out as well when everyone else is dialed up.
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I'm only deputy junior assistant intern guitarist so take this with a grain of salt BUT:
There are two aspects of "volume." One is how hard you're playing your guitar. The other is how much stuff is coming out of your amp. Once you disconnect them you play with the same degree of physical effort no matter how loud or soft your amp is set.
In other words, you're letting the setting affect your playing physically. You have already shown yourself that's not best.Last edited by Sam Sherry; 11-16-2015 at 02:47 PM.
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I think I know what you're talking about, but I'd wonder if it's more about being able to HEAR rather than volume per se. Sometimes, a bigger room with more volume can be easier to play than something more medium size/volume
Originally Posted by Little Jay
if the stage mix or acoustics are better in the bigger one. Regardless of size, the ability to hear well is my biggest concern.
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I find it takes 15 - 20 minutes for me to get used to playing a volume if I have been mainly playing with less..........partly to do (i think) with being that bit more exposed by higher volumes - with the good, the bad and the ugly all being amplified..........
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Well, I did notice that the better I hear myself relative to the other instruments, the better I play, so yes it definately has something to do with hearing yourself, room acoustics, amp setting. Carefully positioning my amp helps a lot in that respect.
The better I hear myself, the more relaxed I play indeed. When I can't hear myself too well I start using more force, yanking the strings and even squeezing my left hand harder it seems. Of course my technique suffers than.
The trouble is often that when you build up, place your amp, play a little bit it, sounds fine and I can play relaxed. Then the gigs starts, venue fills up with people and when the gig starts all of a sudden all acoustics have changed and I start yanking the strings again.
I noticed Gillad Hekselman - who doesn't play all that loud - practically sits with his ear on the speaker of his Twin Reverb. I noticed too that the closer my ears are to the speaker, the better I find it. It's just not practical when things get louder and you have to fill the room with your amp - it's just too loud to be close to the amp!
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I often think people play too damn loud, but the problem is, a lot of folks don't go to "listen" to music, so the audience is loud and the musicians get louder and then people talk louder...
I make it a point to play "electric" and with pretty good volume at home as much as possible. If I get too comfortable playing too quiet, then if I get a gig where things are running loud, I'm fumbling...can't have that.
I guess this is why I'm drawn to the tele...an archtop, there's that nick acoustic tone I can hear in the living room, but it dissapears on the gig...but a tele, to hear it at all, I gotta amplify...so there's less difference between gig and living room.
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Lately I've been facing my amp backwards at the wall so that the sound is immediately diffused. I turn it up louder than neccesary then use the volume knob to blend with the band. I play a lot of rhythm guitar in funk and r&b bands, and for that I have to be able to hit it pretty hard without being louder than the vocals and horns and still be able to hear myself very clearly. Most of the jazz gigs I do are corporate events where the bands overall volume is critical to being hired consistently. I am pretty sensitive to dynamics and hate it when the music is so loud that it sounds like no one is listening or breathing the music.
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eddy b,
Do you find facing the amp (I'm assuming open back) at the wall reduces just a little volume or is it more about shaving of some high end chime?
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Whiskey it does a little of both and it makes it a lot easier to hear my self, because the sound is going up the wall, not midpoint between my knee and ankle. You know I've tried amp stands, chairs, crates and in the venues I play, small bars with cramped stages, if the amp is facing forward and elevated it is aimed essentially right at the audiences head.
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for me the biggest volume issue is the one flagged - with excessive humility - by sam sherry. you can have the amp-guitar combo relatively low and play the guitar hard to compensate; or you can have the amp-guitar combo relatively high and play the guitar very lightly to compensate. the sounds are very different (but in principle the same volume could be achieved using both methods) - and the feel, needless to say, is very very different.
i have very often been pushed (in loud venues) to having amp and guitar too low to avoid feedback - and trying to reach the audience by playing harder (and harder....). this is a bad pattern to get into - it does not do your technique any good at all. its a real problem in fact.
familiar to anyone?
(this is another argument for a tele - but i am strongly disinclined to do that because i am the biggest jazz-snob in the world)
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I would think that a "big jazz snob" would be listening to the music, not looking at the instrument. As I take a quick look at my CD collection, I count about a dozen of the world's most accomplished, successful, respected jazz guitarists using solid-body or semi-hollow-body guitars for most of their work.
In any event, overplaying your instrument can happen on any kind of guitar, and putting your amp down by your knees will always make it more difficult to hear. What I discovered several years ago, before the Bose L1 systems, was that a smaller amp on a speaker stand just above my head would carry much better than a larger, louder amp on the floor. In fact, I used to go hear Mick Goodrick in a noisy club playing with a quartet, and he used two very small amps placed up high, one on the upright piano's top, and one hung from a coat-rack, with Mick going through a stereo pedal, perhaps a chorus of some kind, and he never had to play with any extra effort to be heard.
Now, I run through a Bose L1 Compact using the multi-effects pedal that best matches the gig and guitar, sometimes along with a tube pre-amp, and never have a problem hearing myself, nor does the band or audience have trouble hearing the guitar, even at moderate volume.
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but ron - inasmuch as i'm a snob i'm riddled with prejudice - so not rational
part of this is that i don't much listen to contemporary jazz guitarists - i listen to wes mostly - but also bill evans, sonny rollins, clifford brown - that sort of thing. so none of my guitar heroes - given my very closed mind - are playing solid body or semi-hollow guitars
of course you are right - but i don't think you quite appreciated the self-critical nature of my remark
i'm working through the very helpful 'best jazz guitar album of the year' thread to try to curb the worst excesses of my conservatism...Last edited by Groyniad; 11-18-2015 at 01:36 PM.
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I completely agree--hard to "feel" what you're playing when it's too loud. That said, even at home, I think there's an optimal volume to "get the air moving".
What's more problematic when playing with other people in public is not just noise but clarity. If the sound is muddled on the bandstand and you can't hear the other players--bass particularly from my standpoint--it really affects your playing. We have had some issues with the sound mix--our last gig the input from the digital piano to the PA wasn't working, so we had to use a monitor as an output speaker--and it has messed up our performance. It's hard to get too adventuresome in your playing when you can't really hear how it's sounding.
I am sometimes amused at live rock video from the 70's (pre-earpiece era) where obviously the players can't really hear themselves or the other musicians on the stage with any clarity. Led to a lot of sloppy live stuff.
On a similar note, last Sunday we saw the Brian Setzer Orchestra in Omaha--absolutely top-notch musicianship from Brian and his entire band BUT the horns were amplified so loud it was actually hard at times to hear the guitar. My ears are still ringing from it--would expect it from AC/DC, but big band??
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I would say, you only need as much volume as you need!
I've been thinking about getting a volume pedal so I can turn the volume down if I started too loud.
(PS -- this is how the page title is appearing, for some reason
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Two words for you Groynaid: Ed Bickert.
I'm pretty old school (I do play a bit of contemporary and fusion but its not my main bag) and I swear by a Tele. It'll do for most things.
Interesting thread. I do find this tricky. I play a lot acoustic gypsy jazz so I have a technique that can handle loud and fast, but I never like this sound on electric guitar. Turning up a bit and picking softer is best, although on an archtop the heavy picking thing can be good. But usually you run into problems with feedback on open strings. With sensible placement of the amp, I've not found body feedback not so much of a problem even on carved boxes unless I am very loud, and if the gig is that loud, why on earth did you bring a knife to a bazooka party?
This might seem obvious but the most important thing is to have a good amp. The AER Alpha didn't cut it for me so I got a Princeton, which after a mod is loud enough. Makes a huge difference. I'm sure if I could be arsed to lug a bigger Fender around the difference would be even more marked. For me it's having the 'size' and presence of the sound, not the volume so much. AER is a great little box for when you can't drive to a gig, but a decent full size amp is almost always better.
I used to struggle hard with the Alpha, but now I've got the Fender, it's much less of a problem.Last edited by christianm77; 11-19-2015 at 06:51 PM.
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Currently I have not played in a group situation for eight years or so. When I did, we used to rehearse in the drummer's basement. I have always hated loud music that hurts my ears. But the drummer had an electronic kit for rehearsals, and we used a good mixer and headphone amp. For me that was great, because I could hear my guitar and keyboard in the mix at a nice normal volume without going deaf and with clarity. So it was great for rehearsals.
The only problem was that when you played out somewhere, you were not used to louder volume levels. And all the issues with acoustics, boomy or dull rooms, etc. But I still hate it when it is too loud.
Anyone use those in-ear monitors? If I were playing regular gigs in a group situation, I think that would be my ideal choice.
I have heard Ron play live outside in a good size open square, and I agree that the Bose sounded great and so does Ron's playing.
Have you found any negative impact on your hearing over the years of playing gigs?
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I pick way too hard, im trying to pick really softly so I crank the amp loud and try to get a balanced sound.
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I have an AER Alpha and a Twin Reverb and a lot of amps to cover the volume situations in between (Fender Blues Deluxe, Session BluesBaby 22 and Rockette:30). If I could bring the Twin all the time I wouldn't hesitate because thats sounds gorgeous with the volume on 1 as well, but it doesn't fit my bike......
Although having the right amp definately helps, and I surely recognize the situation Groyniad is describing where you're trying to reach the audience by playing harder and harder.
But I think it's a even more complicated than just a volume problem, I think Doctor Jeff has a point it's also a matter of sound quality: noise and clarity. Does anyone recognize the situation that in quiet passages your guitar and amp sound absolutely gorgeous, but when - for example - the drummer let's his cymbals ring they just seem to push away or overpower certain frequencies of your sound and leave a thin hollowed out guitar sound?
All I know is I hardly have any of these problems when the volume is low and the sound is balanced in an acoustically good room (and there's another variable: the acoustic properties of the room/stage).
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Most of my playing time is in my practice room at home. Things sound best when the volume is just a hair below the point at which the room acoustics start to affect my ability to hear the lower registers cleanly and evenly. I've noticed that this is usually just loud enough to cover or almost cover the unamplified sound of the guitar. I do a little recording/mixing there, too, so I've treated some walls and corners with homemade 2' x 4' acoustic cotton absorption panels, but things start getting boomy and muddy with too much volume. It's kind of funny (sad) how much time I'll spend tweaking tone, trying out different amps, EQ settings, etc. so that my practice sounds "good", but when I get out on a gig, all that goes out the window and I just play with whatever basic sound I've got at the moment.
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Absolutely, acoustics, frequencies all that stuff. The way other musicians set up their gear. A lot of the time, it feels like you are hunting for a frequency niche in the overall sound picture... Originally Posted by Little Jay
Adjust your EQ using your ears not your preconceptions, and it can help a lot. Some venues I find myself rolling all my treble off, other nights I have to get rid of the bass. It's a dark art.
Finally if the audience isn't listening, nothing you try will make a difference. Gigs in echoey rooms with no soft furnishings are the hardest. TBH I hate hanging out in places like that when I'm not playing! Very stressful...
Often on gigs people appear like they are not listening, but that doesn't mean your music isn't appreciated.
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