The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've had a really hard time finding material about fingerings of the three octave scales,so I'm asking you some suggestions.
    I have looked at this site Guitar Master Advanced 3 octave method: Hanon for guitar in 3 octaves for better speed, agility & skill and I asked them several times for some sample pages,but they did not reply and,because of the high prices, I didn't want to risk.
    I read in the introduction of the third volume of Modern Method for guitar that 3-octave scale would have been covered in a later volume,but unfortunately it was not published.Any Berklee students that have come across non published Leavitt material?
    Finally I have looked at Aids to technique by Johnny Smith.Again,there's no sample pages and also I do not agree with what Djangobooks is doing,because(correct me if I'm wrong) it's not right to sell books that they did not write or publish because most of them should be of public domain by now( like this ). For you to know you can find the Eddie Lang books and the George Van Eps method online for free,but I'm not linking them because I want to be sure not to infringe forum rules.
    Last edited by Alessandro1; 10-19-2015 at 07:04 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Well sometimes you just have to buy a book.

    Anyway, they teach them at Berklee. They use a variety of approaches.

    One of them is "mirror fingering" or "constant fingering". It makes use of stretch fingerings. The player uses a certain number of notes on one string and a certain number of notes on the adjacent string, then moves to the next set of strings.

    The alternative is to use a Segovia type approach. You simply map out what is logical and facilitated by reasonable, controllable shifts - and - you don't use stretch fingerings.

    You can design both types for every scale and mode.

    I much prefer the Segovia approach, although it's more difficult to memorize all the different forms. The constant fingering approach is more friendly for memorization, but I think the fingerings stink.

    Your mileage may vary.

  4. #3

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    I don't know what is in the guitar book beyond the 26 Hanon exercises, but the original note sequences were designed to emphasize certain finger combinations within the reality of a piano hand position.
    There are 40 scale patterns in the original Hanon before the book moves on to other technical piano concerns.
    Applied to guitar, one would have to design symmetrical fingerings to achieve a somewhat similar effect.

    Ex. 1 (2 options)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ---------3--5--7--5--3--------------------5--7--9--7--5------------------------------------------------
    --3--7-------------------shift 7----5--8-------------------shift--7---------------------------------------


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----------------2----------------------------------4--------------------------------------------------------
    ------2--3--5----5--3--2---------------3--5--7-----7---5---3--------------------------------------------
    --3--------------------------shift---5-----------------------------shift--7---------------------------------

    2 suggestions:

    Play the patterns within the confines of the 2 octave fingerings that you know.

    Design your own symmetrical fingerings.
    Finger each 8 note sequence within one position.
    The shift will generally occur on either the 1st of each group or the last.
    Post your solutions here for feedback.

  5. #4

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    I don't think about it too much any more but I was just using them for a warm up ex. I did use the Leavitt books in college but that was a long time ago. I now simply use adjacent positions, sliding my first finger to the next position and use the normal position fingering.

  6. #5

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    Three Octave Scales-johnny-smith-daily-practice-1-jpg

    Not quite what you want, but this is page 1 of some warm up exercises I was given at a Johnny Smith seminar some years ago. If you find them useful, I have another 2 pages I can post. Let me know. Good Luck.

  7. #6
    Thank you all for the great advices!

  8. #7

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    Buy the Segovia Major and Minor Scales. It's so short that it's not even a book, it's more like a pamphlet, so it's very cheap.
    Buy the Smith Aids To Technique book, also. Try to find the edition that doesn't have the solos in the back, because they stink; i don't even think Smith wrote them.

    The Segovia book has Melodic Minor scale fingerings, the Smith book has Harmonic Minor scales

    You can also download the scales of David Raleigh Arnold for free at his website, but they're not three octaves, and they're very difficult for the left hand.

    Use as many different scale fingerings as possible- 3 note per string etc... it'll help both hands and your knowledge of the board.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandro1
    I've had a really hard time finding material about fingerings of the three octave scales,so I'm asking you some suggestions.
    I have looked at this site Guitar Master Advanced 3 octave method: Hanon for guitar in 3 octaves for better speed, agility & skill and I asked them several times for some sample pages,but they did not reply and,because of the high prices, I didn't want to risk.
    I read in the introduction of the third volume of Modern Method for guitar that 3-octave scale would have been covered in a later volume,but unfortunately it was not published.Any Berklee students that have come across non published Leavitt material?
    Finally I have looked at Aids to technique by Johnny Smith.Again,there's no sample pages and also I do not agree with what Djangobooks is doing,because(correct me if I'm wrong) it's not right to sell books that they did not write or publish because most of them should be of public domain by now( like this ). For you to know you can find the Eddie Lang books and the George Van Eps method online for free,but I'm not linking them because I want to be sure not to infringe forum rules.

    Imo, the 3 notes per string, 7 position system is the most comprehensive. No, offense to others, but the Segovia scales are damn near worthless for improvisation (I also played the masterworks of classical guitar, so trust me, I have spent some time with them). The caged system certainly works for some, but it is missing possibilities which will initially leave you with "holes" in your fretboard knowledge.


    The 7 position system is (most) every (practical) fingering, of every mode, in every key. Pretty important if you ask me.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    the Segovia scales are damn near worthless for improvisation

    Interesting. Staying on point, and setting aside one and two-octave scale fingering patterns:

    How do you assess a 3-octave scale fingering pattern in terms of it's value for supporting improvisation?

    In other words, what makes one 3-octave scale fingering better than another 3-octave scale fingering pattern for supporting improvisation?

  11. #10

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    this is my current thing

    i'm practicing one octave (8 note) scales using three strings and then two strings

    when you get these down, they end up combining rather easily

    i use the half-steps between 5 #5 and 6 (8 note scales remember) to change position - and try always to have them on the same string. this gives you a way to sort out all the fingerings which is smooth and easy on the fingers

    it STARTS to get you away from the position-playing boxes

  12. #11

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    This has probably been mentioned before, but I've run across a 4-note-per-string idea that spans 3 octaves. One chromatic note is added so that it comes out to 4 notes/string (drop the extra note for more RH picking fun!). Usually, the added note is the #5 but you can use whatever you like, of course. This is an extremely easy set of forms to memorize because the number of fingerings are greatly reduced.

    Here's an example.

    F major scale starting on the open E (note that there are 3, 2-string groups which are identical and simply shifted up the neck as needed):


    ------------6---8-9-10---
    ----------5-6---8---10---
    ------3---5-6-7---------
    ----2-3---5---7---------
    --1---3-4-5--------------
    0-1---3---5--------------

    Dang, that was easy!

    If nothing else, these forms are great exercises for moving up and down the neck and visualizing how the separate positional scale fingerings blend into one another.

    This is also a great concept for arpeggios...

    Edit: I just realized the hammer-ons and slides are for a different type of exercise that I do with this. The 4 notes/string is for strict alternate picking. Sorry about that!
    Last edited by FatPick; 10-23-2015 at 01:20 PM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    Interesting. Staying on point, and setting aside one and two-octave scale fingering patterns:

    How do you assess a 3-octave scale fingering pattern in terms of it's value for supporting improvisation?

    In other words, what makes one 3-octave scale fingering better than another 3-octave scale fingering pattern for supporting improvisation?

    Well, "better" is hard to set in stone, but one reason is consistency. Another is completeness, you see the fretboard as one big whole.


    Ultimately, any scale system is just a way to see the neck. What you do with it is another story all together.

    That being said, if you haven't learned a system yet, you might as well learn the most complete one.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Well, "better" is hard to set in stone, but one reason is consistency. Another is completeness, you see the fretboard as one big whole.


    Ultimately, any scale system is just a way to see the neck. What you do with it is another story all together.

    That being said, if you haven't learned a system yet, you might as well learn the most complete one.
    OK.

    so is there a public domain treatise on playing 3-octave scales and modes using 3NPS? or for that matter, proprietary?

    by that i mean a treatise that includes the precise shifts, both ascending and descending, with specified fingerings, for all diatonic and symmetric scales and at least a few modes from of those scales? (Dorian, Mixolydian, Locrian, Altered, Phrygian Dominant, etc.)

  15. #14

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    Oh jeeze....

    Learn the scale, learn the sound of the scale

    Learn about shifting rules from the likes of Segovia or the like

    Apply that to the sound of the scale

    All this three note per string stuff is...

    harmful

    disingenuous

    misleading

    Your fingering (we gotta find a better noun for that verb or verb for that noun...swha?) will dictate your sound and articulation, yes. So that means that you shouldn't fall into "finger" patterns.

    They don't work in improvisation. Learn why they work instead of rote learning the exact fingerings

    I studied Segovia fingerings for like... three years. What did it teach me?

    1a. Shifting rules in regards to fingers. Going up the neck, shift with the 1st or 2nd finger. Why? Cause it makes you look like a cool ass mother f'er while you do it... Um... Actually, because it allows your line to be endless going up. This is similar to the thumb index cross over technique with piano. You can go up an entire chromatic scale this way (except for those pesky half steps between the B and C and E and F. Pesky keys. Pesky piano... Hmm, hit song?)

    1b. Shifting rules going down the neck (lower pitches). Shift with the pinky or the ring finger... wait so if I get married... will that mean that I won't be able to play scales descending down the neck of my guitar. **Dramatic Music** NOOOOOOOO!

    2. Legato rules in regards to shifting. Shifting on a classical guitar is a chore. Shifting with flat wounds on an archtop is pretty bad too. Shifting on round jazz gauge round wounds on an archtop... that's like trying to screw a nail into a piece of marble... wait, what the &#@?

    I play with a hybird 13/12 round wound set of Pro Steels, the brightest strings I can get that still sound good on the cheap.

    When I say round wounds you say string fart. Round wounds, STRING FART
    ...I hate youtube comments sometimes...

    I also still have a flip phone, and own it. WHAT, YOU GOTTA PROBLEM, STEVE? Oh wait... not good to mock the dead. Yeah, I'm also 28 years old (what's wrong with me? Hipster much? Don't answer that)

    3. Learn about crossing over fingers from your piano brethren. Yeah... this one is easier shown than explained. Maybe I'll post a video to demonstrate this technique.

    4. Be intentional with each note that you play. Guess what I'm gonna say next... you gotta ear train and "Use your ears, Luke!"

    The crazy is strong with this one... **Darth Vader breathing sounds**

    Oh right. I said 3 notes per string is harmful right? I can't say that and just leave it without an explanation. Well... if you are practicing scale studies for a while and you are focusing on scales for... I dunno... 3 hours straight (don't do this, mental fatigue will guarantee that very little will sink in. Remember the adage quality over quantity?)

    Anyway, where was I... right. 3 notes and being harmful. Well, if you have normal to small hands, and you are constantly stretching your fingers to play scale passages... Carpel tunnel, tennis elbow, inflamed forearm muscles, inability to play afterwards... No one wants that, right? Pay attention to your hands. Everyone's hands are a little different. Don't force stretches all the time. That's why I reserve stretches for my chord playing... but I love playing voicings with 2nds... oh vey

    Just my own meanderings. Take what you wish
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-23-2015 at 11:43 PM.

  16. #15

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    Irez87- I agree, but it's hard to tell someone searching to " just feel it " , the cautions are well founded though.

  17. #16

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    Fretting over which version of scales to use (pun intended) is a waste of time. As a classically trained guitarist since I was about twelve, I learned the Segovia scales. They are well designed to teach a fluid way of shifting positions up the neck, but are not handed down by Moses from the Mount. They do help develop fret board awareness, tone, and facility of the fretting and picking hands. But in the heat of improvisation you depend on your ears.

    I find that what is most important is maintaining the continuity of the melodic and harmonic phrasing. In a jocular light now I'm going to reveal the best advice I can give to an intermediate guitarist aspiring to advance. If you are playing a chord melody arrangement or even simply a harmonized solo phrase, finger it so your highest melody notes can be articulated on the B string with the ring or pinky finger of your fretting hand consistently. That leaves open the possibility of playing higher note flourishes or encircling the highest melody note in the phrase on the first (high E) string with your fretting index finger. Remember that you are either playing the melody alone or harmonizing it with chord fragments as you articulate the phrase essentially.

    One other reason that I suggest this approach is that harmonizing the scales is the next most important exercise to improve your playing. Apart from the fact that this keeps your practice interesting and develops fret board awareness of chord fragments in each key in every position on the neck, this is in reality a key to developing smooth voice leading.

    I have argued over the usefulness of the Segovia scales with others who suggest they are misguided or mistaken or useless. I have read the suggestions of Jimmy Bruno and others about various complicated scale patterns avowed to be superior. I don't find that to be true, but each to his or her own. But one thing I do believe to be true - which scale patterns you use for practice and warm-ups are not the issue - it is what you do with them that counts. Trust your ears to be your guide.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Alton
    Three Octave Scales-johnny-smith-daily-practice-1-jpg

    Not quite what you want, but this is page 1 of some warm up exercises I was given at a Johnny Smith seminar some years ago. If you find them useful, I have another 2 pages I can post. Let me know. Good Luck.
    no fingerings, just notes on the stave?

  19. #18

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    A few facts:
    1. This OP is under Guitar Technique, not Improvisation.
    2. This is not about position playing or fingerings used for position playing in 2 octaves across 5 or 6 strings
    3. This is not about chord melody
    4. There is no such thing as a "Segovia Scale". (they're Major and Melodic Minor, with specific position shifts and fingerings, and seven right hand articulations)


    A few observations:
    1. Fingerings for 3 octave scales are important because it's all about the shifts.
    2. Some will tell you that scales are not worth your time, and especially 3-octave scales at that.
    3. Others will tell you that every great virtuoso knows his scales, guitarists included
    4. Many have observed that compared to keyboard, string and horn players, guitarists are relative cripples at virtuosic melody playing. For example, glissandi are articulated by other instrumentalists in virtually every style of music, while many guitarists constrain themselves to position playing and narrow ranges. (Off the top of my head, my loose recollection is that Johnny Smith, Flamenco and Gypsy players make a point of breaking out of these constraints).

    On that last one, shall we trace that to cowboys, delta blues men, the length and width of the fret board, or just good old fashioned laziness?
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-24-2015 at 11:57 AM.

  20. #19

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    okay, fumbles, okay... I know there is no such thing as a Segovia scale. C'mon you know what I meant. It's all about the shifting principles and how the scales lay horizontally and vertically across the fret board. Save the sass for your cats (that almost rhymes ) As Gob Bluth would say:



    Actually, guitarists are more likely to play scalar because the instrument lends itself easier to that. But, with everything, it's all a matter of context.

    And the fingerings are in his book. I know most of the money goes to the publisher now, but I am sure Johnny's family gets some of it as well. The Method book is well worth the purchase. It's ALL there, chords, three octave arpeggios, three octave scales, with fingerings. No TAB. Worth the time and money.
    They don't make books like that anymore IMHO.

    P.S. Fumbles et all, if you studied classical really seriously, then Johnny Smith's book and George Van Ep's books are worth it. Throw in Barry Galbraith's book on comping to the list as well. There, that's all you need. Everything else... including The Art of Picking (though I enjoyed the book) is icing on the cake. Enjoy.

    Happy thoughts
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-25-2015 at 06:57 AM.

  21. #20

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    Segovia's version of the Major and Minor Diatonic Scales is a specific fingered version as edited by Andre Segovia. That's all. One can certainly finger scales in any fashion you like - ask Django.

  22. #21

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    Better to just be able to play in any key freely across the entire fretboard. I think that's the ultimate goal of learning various positions and fingering systems:


  23. #22

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    Very true. I did that work for 3-4 years. It helped more than playing endless scales and licks, believe it or not. Taught me how scales "behave", so to speak. Now I can mess with the "behavior" of scales more freely.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanM
    Better to just be able to play in any key freely across the entire fretboard. I think that's the ultimate goal of learning various positions and fingering systems:

    sure.

    and in this video he plays 3-octave scales by connecting adjacent fingering patterns - you know - just like everyone else does when they play 3-octave scales. oh boy.

    the only problem is that he plays them poorly. squeaks, muffed notes, uneven time, and the coup de grace - pure misses playing out of key notes, lol. i have no doubt that he would do a better job if he wasn't focusing on filming a video. but still.

    he mentions that he played his 5 fingering patterns for 20 years before playing along the fret board through the positions. not surprising for a rocker of course but it just goes to show you that Leavitt, Segovia, or Shearer books could have accelerated this lesson plan by about 17 years.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-24-2015 at 09:52 PM.

  25. #24

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    That's Johnny Smith for you !

  26. #25

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    No one, well... maybe Jack Peterson comes close... but no one has JS's attention to detail when it comes to...







    ...TONE AND TIMBRE

    You thought I was gonna say chops, right?

    He's my model for tone, timbre, execution, precision, and range when I play melodic lines on the guitar.

    For comping, that's Jim Hall and Ed Bickert's game (though JS is a force to be reckoned with).

    No one else had the tonal and timbral control of JS.

    There's only a couple of guitarists who come to mind when I mention JS

    1. John Williams

    2. David Russell

    3. Julian Bream (when he was recorded and mic'ed correctly, shesh what travesty...)

    4. Segovia

    Notice anything about that list
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-25-2015 at 09:35 AM.