Picking Technique

[gravitas]

Although you're actually more free to choose which notes to accent, you're right about the most 'natural' feeling accents for alternate picking. It's all good though. I wish I could pull of the Paco de Lucia thing... holy crap that guy's insanely fast with 2 fingernails...

Actually, with 3

Yeah, he lost his pinky and thumb nails in a barn fire

[Luan]

uhm? I was referring that those guys use 3 fingers to play fast passages...

[franco6719]

What is meant by "economy picking"?

[CC323]

Actually, with 3

Sorry, I was under the impression that he did all of his scales 'I, M' rather than 'amima'. Thanks for the info!

It's actually astonishingly easy to pull off two, three, or four note per string patterns with economy. It's not all sweeps, guys

But if you're not slurring those other 3 notes, you are alternate picking them, and only 'economizing' the string changes, which supports the assertion that alternate picking is the general technique for plectrum style guitar. If you are claiming that economy picking is using exclusively the most economic motion, whether that be alternate picking, slur technique, or 'swept' string changes, then that's a great system, especially for performance. I kind of prefer using solely alternate picking for learning pieces and for playing etudes, but for long flowing lines and really brisk melodies while improvising, anything goes. And the funny thing is, we can argue sweep/alternate for months, and someone like Wes will just use his thumb and probably accomplish a lot more musically than we do arguing. My apologies if I elevated any level of 'argument' status, I should try to be more objective and just give my opinions.

[mcohen777]

hey, I had a question about your wrist/palm when your picking. Does your palm rest on the strings/guitar when you pick, or is your hand opened out across the strings where your palm does not touch the string while you pick at all.

[gravitas]

uhm? I was referring that those guys use 3 fingers to play fast passages...

Sorry, didn't mean to confuse, I was just kidding around and being facetious

But if you're not slurring those other 3 notes, you are alternate picking them, and only 'economizing' the string changes, which supports the assertion that alternate picking is the general technique for plectrum style guitar. If you are claiming that economy picking is using exclusively the most economic motion, whether that be alternate picking, slur technique, or 'swept' string changes, then that's a great system, especially for performance. I kind of prefer using solely alternate picking for learning pieces and for playing etudes, but for long flowing lines and really brisk melodies while improvising, anything goes. And the funny thing is, we can argue sweep/alternate for months, and someone like Wes will just use his thumb and probably accomplish a lot more musically than we do arguing. My apologies if I elevated any level of 'argument' status, I should try to be more objective and just give my opinions.

Hmm... You know, I've been under the impression for the longest time that economy picking was just economizing the string changes, that there was no mandatory slurring, that upstrokes and downstrokes on one string didn't in any way "define" the technique.

I never really learned technique from a teacher, I just picked up effective picking anecdotally- through articles in magazines, hearing other amateur guitarists discuss it, and watching the fingers of pros from a distance. If what you say is true, then I've been incorrectly labling my picking technique with the term "economy" for years now- and that earlier figure I posted should read more like 60% Alt 20% Economy and 20% Circle Picking. I guess I can say I learned something today!

Also, amen to that Wes thing. Keving Eubanks knocks me out in that way also

[Dennoow]

In my opinion it's best to use a combination of all the techniques. Legato/tapping in combination with Hybrid picking to give your playing that warm smooth saxophonish sound, alternate picking to accent and make it sound a little more agressive, Sweep picking for anything in between. However, if you're really really good at one particular technique then don't be arsed to practise the others too hard, play most to your strength! Gambale is a great example, he's mastered sweep/economy picking in such a way he can play pretty much everything with it. He doesn't alternate pick btw and sweep picking is not strictly for one note per string patterns. Alternate picking simply means that you constantly pick up-down-up-down etc, whereas with sweep picking you always pick in the direction of the string you're going to play. for instance if you play 3 notes on the b string and you're next note is on the high e. The alternate picker will use Down on the first, up on the second, down on the third and up on the high e note and the sweep picker will use down on the first, up on the 2nd, down on the 3rd and DOWN on the high e note because of the direction of the string. This is also why it's called economy picking, you don't have to go around the high e (in this case) in order to do an upstroke and this is what Gambale is using. I tend to use Alternate picking in pretty much all scalar runs or stringskipping runs and sweep picking in all 1 note per string situations or combinations of 3 and 1 note per string situations as well as for all arpeggios. Brett Garsed mastered Hybrid picking in a way he can pretty much play anything with it.

[CC323]

In my opinion it's best to use a combination of all the techniques. Legato/tapping in combination with Hybrid picking to give your playing that warm smooth saxophonish sound, alternate picking to accent and make it sound a little more agressive, Sweep picking for anything in between. However, if you're really really good at one particular technique then don't be arsed to practise the others too hard, play most to your strength! Gambale is a great example, he's mastered sweep/economy picking in such a way he can play pretty much everything with it. He doesn't alternate pick btw and sweep picking is not strictly for one note per string patterns. Alternate picking simply means that you constantly pick up-down-up-down etc, whereas with sweep picking you always pick in the direction of the string you're going to play. for instance if you play 3 notes on the b string and you're next note is on the high e. The alternate picker will use Down on the first, up on the second, down on the third and up on the high e note and the sweep picker will use down on the first, up on the 2nd, down on the 3rd and DOWN on the high e note because of the direction of the string. This is also why it's called economy picking, you don't have to go around the high e (in this case) in order to do an upstroke and this is what Gambale is using. I tend to use Alternate picking in pretty much all scalar runs or stringskipping runs and sweep picking in all 1 note per string situations or combinations of 3 and 1 note per string situations as well as for all arpeggios. Brett Garsed mastered Hybrid picking in a way he can pretty much play anything with it.

I disagree that that one line is sweep picking. The stroke for the third and 4th notes is a sweep, but the first three notes of the line are alternating direction. It's the more common technique, but it's not necessarily better. An interesting thing with alternate picking is that one can reverse the pick strokes (start on an up) to shift accents, which can be fun.

And Gambale can play just about whatever he wants, but the inclusion of slurs and alternate picking lines makes what he does less sweep oriented. In the way sweeps are described to me, you're only sweeping if you are dragging the plectrum through the strings ie: u-u-u or d-d-d, and doing alternate picked or slur lines in between sweeps is what's know as economy picking, which is what gambale uses. The thing about Gambale's techinque which I don't care for, is that it's highly unpositional, which makes sightreading much more complicated. You can definitely do economy picking in a single position, but the gambale-esque pentatonic and upper partial sweeps are usually multipositional, and I like to making reading as statistically simple as possible.

Once again though, just my opinions, and I'm sure there are ton's of sweepers who could kick my but at the speed part of things (but not the reading )

take care,
Chris

[Dennoow]

I disagree. Sweep picking is called economy picking too because it makes the movement in your (right hand) playing as efficient as possible. You can't make any picking movement more efficient than alternate picking if you play more than one note on just 1 string, therefore you can only make your movements more efficient when you're crossing a string and this is exactly what sweep/economy picking is doing. an in this respect it doesn't matter is you play 1 or 3 or 5 notes on a string, it's the efficiency that is key and the big benefit in this technique.

I actually used to seperate sweep picking from alternate picking from economy picking. Sweep picking I'd use the way you use it (for 1 note per string patterns like arpeggios), alternate picking is the constant u-d-u-d-u-d etc, and economy picking is always picking in the direction of the string like my previous example. Perhaps that's the most clear.

And no technique is superior to another IMO. With alternate picking you create a much more articulate sound, sweep picking sounds more fluid, legato sounds more fluid. It's that combination of sounds I'm looking for. I don't know about sight reading btw, I'm not much of a sight reader, in fact you can say I suck at that

[Breezy]

What picking style brings out your best dynamics? Use that one. Doesn't matter that the other one is so clean or makes you feel so 'pro'. The louds and softs of our lines are a language unto themselves and are essential to communicating fine music. They are made mainly with our picking hand.

A cold shot was taken a few years back at a prominent guitarist who played very cleanly. It was something like; "He sounds like a typewriter. Except the typewriter has more soul!!!" Ouch.
Dynamics....however you do it.
Breezy

[shadowguitarist]

I'm not a big fan of guitarists who pick every single note...neither am I fan of guys who pick no notes at all! I think you have to strike a balance. Breezy's pretty much nailed it - dynamics is the key. I use a combination of picking and hammer-on's and pull-off's because it gives me the best combination of intensity and flow. When it comes to arpeggiated licks I tend to sweep as that is the easiest way for me to play them.

[Breezy]

It;s good to have a fellow picker validate.
Thanks, Shadow
Breezy

[djpeters]

Would any of you folks be interested in formulating a practice routine for me (and others here)?

I can devote 2 hours a day for the next year or so.

[shadowguitarist]

djpeters, do you mean picking practice or jazz practice?

[djpeters]

Prejudice unnecessary! Im aiming to be a rounded musician.

[Henry Mars]

Would any of you folks be interested in formulating a practice routine for me (and others here)?

I can devote 2 hours a day for the next year or so.

Find a good classical clarinet book of etudes and map out the fingering and picking. practice slowly until it becomes a habit then gradually increase your speed.
I have used clarinet and violin music for years for technique development. It works if you are persistent.

[shadowguitarist]

Personally, I've never really paid much attention to practising purely technique. My philosophy is that once you get a handle on playing the music - the picking and the other technical bits will naturally follow. But I'm sure not everyone's gonna agree with me on that one.

If you're a beginner, I'd say spend 40% of your time on picking practice and the 60% on jamming/improvisation over chord changes.

More intermediate players should probably spend 20% or less of their time on picking.

There's two types of picking you want to master - what I call linear picking and cross-string picking.

Linear picking is picking many notes on one string or between adjacent strings. Playing chromatics up and down the fretboard is a good way to practise this. You could also practise playing your major and melodic minor scales etc. up and down the fretboard, which kills 2 birds with one stone as you also get to consolidate your knowledge on scales.

Cross-string picking is picking only 1 or 2 notes between different strings and sometimes this may involve skipping strings. To practise this, I would advocate playing arpeggios, due to the wide note spacing between the notes.

That's just picking. Then you've got legato to worry about!

Hope that helps : )

[merseybeat]

Would any of you folks be interested in formulating a practice routine for me (and others here)?

I can devote 2 hours a day for the next year or so.

Jimmy Bruno has a fantastic video out there on the web about "Economy Picking", complete with correct technique and potential pitfalls!

I have been an alternate picker for around 30 years and thought I was quite happy till I started trying to play the more quicker stuff! Now be warned! When I started to practice Mr. Bruno's economy picking lessons my playing technique hit an all time low for a few months as those inherent muscle memory bytes in my brain became so disorientated

However the good news is that it eventually balances out so you get the best of both worlds and IMHO a more accurate and fluid style!

So to summarize, don't start economy picking unless you have a month or two off the road!

Eddie

[jazzgtrl4]

Jimmy Bruno has a fantastic video out there on the web about "Economy Picking", complete with correct technique and potential pitfalls!

I have been an alternate picker for around 30 years and thought I was quite happy till I started trying to play the more quicker stuff! Now be warned! When I started to practice Mr. Bruno's economy picking lessons my playing technique hit an all time low for a few months as those inherent muscle memory bytes in my brain became so disorientated

However the good news is that it eventually balances out so you get the best of both worlds and IMHO a more accurate and fluid style!

So to summarize, don't start economy picking unless you have a month or two off the road!

Eddie

Hi, Ive been using Brunos book called "The Art of Picking" for about 3 months now and practicing Economy picking. Im going through the exact same thing you did as far as that going backward disorientated feeling. I can see this is going to pay off but ya i jumped into this when i had a bunch a gigs going on so it did kind of throw me off in a live situation. Ive got another three months here in the summer where things slow down so im really going to concentrate on getting this down. I know it takes time.

[djpeters]

we should mention that some patterns are more difficult than others when im warmed up i can play most stuff @ 12 notes per second (strictly alternate picking). there are some lines I can play faster some slower.

I'm wondering why I dont just use legato, tapping and sweeps? much easier options! Personally I found the challenge of consistent alternate picking a good goal.

[djpeters]

recently ive been working through J.S.Bach's sonatas and partitas for violin(on guitar). a hefty tome full of great logical lines.
Mainly sight reading but i would like to get some of them up to speed.

[Henry Mars]

recently ive been working through J.S.Bach's sonatas and partitas for violin(on guitar). a hefty tome full of great logical lines.
Mainly sight reading but i would like to get some of them up to speed.

I have worked through a lot of that stuff ... map out the picking and positions then practice slowly. They will get up to speed in time.

Right now I use a lot of classical clarinet music because it covers the entire range of the guitar.

[merseybeat]

we should mention that some patterns are more difficult than others when im warmed up i can play most stuff @ 12 notes per second (strictly alternate picking). there are some lines I can play faster some slower.

I'm wondering why I don't just use legato, tapping and sweeps? much easier options! Personally I found the challenge of consistent alternate picking a good goal.

IMHO and strictly no offence intended but I used to think like this (Being an Ex heavy Metal Shredder), but all these suggest 'mechanical technique' in place of Harmony! I was hearing nice passages in my head but due to the limitations of alternate picking I just couldn't deliver them on the fly (String Jumps, Arps played 1 note per string etc.) Economy picking is finally allowing me a lot more options. I am just finding it a lot smoother and my pick doesn't get jammed between the string anymore

I have also started using the 3mm Big Stubby which is the most amazing gift I was given by an old school cat here in Jeddah! He also gave me a tip to keep the pick warm before a performance (Hold it firmly in your palm for about 5 Min's before you perform). I know this sounds crazy but a warm pick glides much easier over the string!

Eddie

[Shadow of the Sun]

The way I pick, when I'm using a pick, means that economy picking is a bit hard for me.

Every time I switch strings, I play a downstroke, simply due to how I hold the pick and how much easier it makes things.

[ronjazz]

It also takes a certain brain-to-hand set of nerves and impulses, so, while it may not be strictly speaking a talent, it is a proclivity, bolstered by practice. The reason i mention it is because he was really fast very early on.