Guitar Picks - Thin or Thick for Fast Playing?

[AlsoRan]

I am taking it upon myself to renew the debate once more. That Troy Grady series, "Cracking the Code," along with a book on sweep picking from a different author, has been making one heck of a difference for me in just a short six weeks or so. Now, I am ready to consider the pick itself.

I noticed that many of the speedsters in Troy's videos used thin or medium picks, at least they looked that way to me in how they bent. Is their a final consensus on the effect of pick thickness on speed? In the 5 or 6 videos I have seen from Troy, I did not hear pick thickness being considered.

Also, if I go to a thinner pick from my 3.0mm Dunlops, will my tone be thinner.

Maybe some of the newer members can add to what has already been discussed in older threads.

Thanks.

[mr. beaumont]

Let me put on one of my Troy Grady albums...

[AlsoRan]

Let me put on one of my Troy Grady albums...

Ha! Ha! Good one!

[AlsoRan]

Here is the answer, Troy gives (for those who care, Mr. B...)

What picks do you use?

Many / any. I have no strong preferences when it comes to pick choice. In our various lessons and slow-motion clips, I’ve probably used everything that’s commonly available at your local music store. And I like them all for what they are. Like most players I probably prefer a somewhat heavier pick if I have to push around heavy gauge strings. But again this is not specific, and I’ll use anything from a .7mm or so on up.
Part of the freedom of understanding how picking works is losing the superstition that certain equipment is critical to being able to play. Thankfully, when it comes to simply executing basic technique, there’s tremendous flexibility there. The rainbow of pick choices is your Crayola 64!

[mr. beaumont]

Sorry...

Just seems this forum gas become the "how do i shred" forum over the last year...yet nobody asks "what can i play with my speed that will be interesting over _______€ changes..."

[AlsoRan]

Sorry...

Just seems this forum gas become the "how do i shred" forum over the last year...yet nobody asks "what can i play with my speed that will be interesting over _______€ changes..."

No need to apologize, Mr. B.

Like many on this forum, I don't have time for political correctness. Tell me how you feel and what your thoughts are, and that's good enough for me.

You are so right, however. I probably have a disproportionate, maybe even juvenile attraction to being able to play fast. It was also you that once mentioned many who are trying to learn to play Jazz are more interested in the challenge than in actually making great Jazz music.

Words to the wise indeed.

Still, if there are any takers...?

[ronjazz]

Well, Troy doesn't think it matters much, so perhaps it shouldn't.

There is no universal right thing to do. If you want a particular sound, then the answer is there for you: whatever gets that sound. I have a box of picks I've kept for decades, and it's a couple hundred, most of them different from each other. It reflects the search for tone, and the search for tones.

I favor a thicker pick when I use one, because I play mostly fingerstyle with nails on nylon, a great sound when done well. The pick is more musically appropriate for certain gigs or styles, even on the nylon, occasionally. Joe Pass was unhappy with picks; Howard Roberts had only one he would record his own albums with, Jim Hall used different ones for strumming sometimes, Pat Metheny uses the wrong one, according to him. Wes Montgomery, among the greatest of all time, used his thumb.

I don't know what shredders use, because their tone generally has nothing to do with what a guitar sounds like.

[vintagelove]

I use a small thick pick, Clayton, 1.26 mm I think. I use it mostly for the tone (thick and warm). That being said I want no movement at all in my pick. This isn't universal thought as I know at least one gentleman who's name slipped my mind that likes a flexible pick.

Fwiw, imo, there is no magic trick to playing fast. Just lots of practice.

good luck!!!

[losaltosjoe]

From a Just Jazz Guitar cover story on Robert Conti:


"My technique was developed and is primarily based on three principles. First, economy of movement in both hands, as any motion that does not serve to create a sound is essentially wasted effort, especially in the right hand, wrist or forearm. Second is absolutely no resistance, friction, or drag in the motor function of the right-hand picking technique, which leads to number three. My choice of pick is an .038 gauge for optimum performance and response, as that gauge eliminates any choking in the pick-strokes between the strings. Those self-imposed parameters always apply, whether I'm playing clean improvised lines with a rhythm section at 250 BPM, or using distortion while playing with a roaring blues band."


There's a good close-up of the pick at ~ 1:25.

I'm an "old dog" and the .038 is just too thin. However, the "less resistance/friction" argument did get me to switch from medium to light. I still use picks of different thickness depending on the situation.

[AlsoRan]

From a Just Jazz Guitar cover story on Robert Conti:


"My technique was developed and is primarily based on three principles. First, economy of movement in both hands, as any motion that does not serve to create a sound is essentially wasted effort, especially in the right hand, wrist or forearm. Second is absolutely no resistance, friction, or drag in the motor function of the right-hand picking technique, which leads to number three. My choice of pick is an .038 gauge for optimum performance and response, as that gauge eliminates any choking in the pick-strokes between the strings. Those self-imposed parameters always apply, whether I'm playing clean improvised lines with a rhythm section at 250 BPM, or using distortion while playing with a roaring blues band."


There's a good close-up of the pick at ~ 1:25.

I'm an "old dog" and the .038 is just too thin. However, the "less resistance/friction" argument did get me to switch from medium to light. I still use picks of different thickness depending on the situation.

That was very informative, especially considering my high regard for Conti's technique. Thanks!

[destinytot]

From a Just Jazz Guitar cover story on Robert Conti:

Thanks - ".038 gauge"... wow!

(I like my sound from .14 - .55 flatwounds with quite a high action and a Jim Dunlop Nylon .88 pick, but I don't play particularly fast.)

[ecj]

There's an interview with Benson somewhere where he says that for good technique you need one light and one heavy element. So either light strings with a heavy pick, or heavy strings with a light pick.

Makes sense to me. You want something to be flexible to allow for smooth motion, but not both because then everything is just flopping around.

[destinytot]

So either light strings with a heavy pick, or heavy strings with a light pick.

Do manouche players use the former?

[Shadow of the Sun]

Do manouche players use the former?

Gypsy guitars traditionally have silk strings, so I'm assuming those are rather light.

[destinytot]

Love O'Donel Levy's big-box, fat-string, thin-pick sound:

[jzucker]

I am taking it upon myself to renew the debate once more. That Troy Grady series, "Cracking the Code," along with a book on sweep picking from a different author, has been making one heck of a difference for me in just a short six weeks or so. Now, I am ready to consider the pick itself.

I noticed that many of the speedsters in Troy's videos used thin or medium picks, at least they looked that way to me in how they bent. Is their a final consensus on the effect of pick thickness on speed? In the 5 or 6 videos I have seen from Troy, I did not hear pick thickness being considered.

Also, if I go to a thinner pick from my 3.0mm Dunlops, will my tone be thinner.

Maybe some of the newer members can add to what has already been discussed in older threads.

Thanks.

I think it's a flawed precept to assume a thicker pick will yield thicker tone. I have found the opposite. Benson has stated that his secret to full tone is a thin pick with heavy strings. He actually uses a medium pick which is what I use. The problem with the thin picks is that when you play fast, the pick starts bending and doesn't snap back to shape quick enough. A medium pick is a good compromise. To me, the heavier picks actually generate a sharp and trebley "ping" so they do not sound as fat.

[jzucker]

Love O'Donel Levy's big-box, fat-string, thin-pick sound:

whenever I played with him or saw him play he was using a medium pick

[destinytot]

whenever I played with him or saw him play he was using a medium pick

That makes a lot of sense - as does the word 'thunk' (which is what I think of when I hear his great sound).

[Shadow of the Sun]

Personally, I find thick picks sound very "clicky", especially when I'm trying to play fast.

[mr. beaumont]

Gypsy guitars traditionally have silk strings, so I'm assuming those are rather light.

This is not true. The strings are silver plated copper wound. They are not silk and steel, like many assume.

The gauges are generally light (.10's and .11's) but the scale length on a SelMac "petit bouche" (oval hole) is usually 26.5" as well.

Personally, i've pretty much gone to middle of the road choices in both string and pick thickness (.12's and 1.5mm) and it feels great. Vertainly the only thing hindering good technique on my guitars is...me.

[destinytot]

I do like thick Clayton acetal picks, and also D'Andrea Pro-Plecs (which I sought out thanks to this site), but the thick-string-thin(ner)/medium-pick is working for me - thanks to a little bit of awareness of the motion mechanicsa Troy Grady explains so well.

[Patriots2006]

To me Robert Conti's fingers on the fret board are always far away from the frets. It doesn't look to me that he is attempting to minimize unnecessary movement with his fretting hand. I see it in all his videos. Am I mistaken?

[AlsoRan]

To me Robert Conti's fingers on the fret board are always far away from the frets. It doesn't look to me that he is attempting to minimize unnecessary movement with his fretting hand. I see it in all his videos. Am I mistaken?

I noticed his "flying" fingers as well (on his fretting hand). It would probably be a good question to ask Rob Conti about his left hand approach.

[EllissonWatson]

Ha! Ha! Good one! Gypsy guitars traditionally have silk strings.

[MarkRhodes]

From a Just Jazz Guitar cover story on Robert Conti:


"My technique was developed and is primarily based on three principles. First, economy of movement in both hands, as any motion that does not serve to create a sound is essentially wasted effort, especially in the right hand, wrist or forearm. Second is absolutely no resistance, friction, or drag in the motor function of the right-hand picking technique, which leads to number three. My choice of pick is an .038 gauge for optimum performance and response, as that gauge eliminates any choking in the pick-strokes between the strings. Those self-imposed parameters always apply, whether I'm playing clean improvised lines with a rhythm section at 250 BPM, or using distortion while playing with a roaring blues band."


There's a good close-up of the pick at ~ 1:25.

I bought Conti's book/DVD "Precision Technique", which came with two of those super-thin picks. I used them for awhile (and still have some around) but decided to move to a medium pick, which is what I use now.(D'Andrea .71)

I used Jazz III picks--and other heavy picks--for most of my adult life but I now prefer a medium pick for comping and single-note line playing. I thought I would never go back to a 351-style pick after using Jazz IIIs for so long, but now I can't imagine going back to them! ;o)