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Back in the age of the dinosaurs, I was taught to always put my left hand (fretting hand for me) thumb behind the neck; wrapping your thumb around was for untutored types. However, a lot of good players play notes with the their thumbs, Pat Metheny, Kurt Rosenwinkel I think, and others.
How about you all? I have tried it but without much success. I can't do much with the other fingers, and it is a hard transition position-wise. I would be a handy technique in a lot of instances, but I am not sure it is worth the trouble to learn.
Russ
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08-01-2015 10:36 AM
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Narrow width necks facilitate the usage of the thumb whereas wider necks hinder it. In the long run it doesn't matter. Do what feels right for you.
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I also was taught Classical style with the thumb behind the neck. In my experience it doesn't work if you play standing up. Playing electric, I wish I could use my thumb over the neck more, but at the very least I try to wrap it around the neck anyway, the Classical way caused my left wrist serious pain some years ago, and once I switched, I'm fine.
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I don't have large hands so thumbing over doesn't work for me. I pinched the nerve at the base of my thumb when I worked at it and the left thumb felt totally numb.
I figured out to just sod it and play only those chords that I can play without injuring myself.
The classical cats got it right, I think.
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What matters is the position of the guitar. Classical position (guitar up fairly high, neck tilted up) -- whether you are sitting or standing -- encourages planting the thumb in the middle of the back of the neck. But then sometimes you need to fret some notes with your thumb -- if Ted Greene did it, it must be good!
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If you can play everything you need to play, seems unnecessary. I always feel that technique, and especially dogmatic technique, is secondary to music and sound. If I close my eyes and the music is killin', I don't care how the person's making it happen.
I use my thumb a ton. Sometimes because it's comfortable for me and easier than not using it, and sometimes because there are things I want to play that I haven't found another way to accomplish without using the extra digit.
Whatever works and sounds good.
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My thumb is all over the place. Perpindiclular, parallel, diagonal, wrapped, and some other postions. I started with the popular thumb position and found it limiting. My hand cramped after a short time. I began to concentrate on hitting the notes instead and realized my thumb was moving all over and it felt better. I recently moved to a wider nut neck, but I still wrap my thumb sometimes hitting a minor 7 rooted on the top string when needed.
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The important thing here is the size of your hand. If you have smaller hands like me, using the thumb / wrapping over the top is near impossible as it completely nerfs my ability to use my other fingers effectively. People with large hands will generally feel uncomfortable with the thumb lower in the back of the neck. So the ideal position of the thumb is different for everyone. I've also noticed from working with students for the last 16 years, that some peoples joints just bend a little differently...and I'm not just talking about 'double-jointed' people. Not everyone's fingers bend and move exactly precisely the same. A very slight variance in how someone's hand is built can make a position that for me is comfortable, uncomfortable and painful for them. The width of the fingers come into play as well. Just avoid the internet standard by trying to say that one way is the right way. It's stupid to not consider the persons hand size, shape and other factors. I even had this student one time who had this weird thing where she couldn't cut her fretting hand nails very short because the skin underneath the nail jutted out and connected to her nail in such a way that she had to have a minimum of like 1/8 inch of nail otherwise she'd cut into the skin trying to trim it shorter. It was bizarre. Have only seen that one time. Unfortunately it made it super difficult for her to play anything.
As a general rule: if you have smaller hands, keeping the thumb low in the back of the neck facilitates stretches and also can help to keep fingers from leaning down into strings when playing chords.
If you have excessively large hands, it's almost necessary to keep the thumb high up so that your fingertips don't overshoot over the top of the fretboard, or feel crowded in.
If you're somewhere in between, you'll have to experiment with different positions. Make sure you also try different positions depending on what you are playing i.e. chords vs single lines vs 4 fret positional playing vs large 5 or 6 fret stretches.
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I have to mention my favourite thumb move: fretting notes on the treble side:
CMaj7#11: x35452 (play F# with thumb).
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Okay, THAT had never occurred to me, but then neither have a lot of good ideas.I have to mention my favourite thumb move: fretting notes on the treble side:
CMaj7#11: x35452 (play F# with thumb).
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How do you fret the F# with the thumb? Do reach completely over the 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd & 2nd strings with the thumb?
Last edited by edh; 08-06-2015 at 10:38 PM.
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Nice. I played with the thumb being brought under a while back, but never found a way to use it realistically in real time.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
This chord I play with a diagonal barre using my pointer finger. I play both the C and the F# with my pointer finger.
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Just tried that. Kinky! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Very cool. Never thought of that either. Thanks! Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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My thumb is also all over the place. Behind for stretch chords. Up and over for any string bends and occasional bass notes. This is difficult for me as I also have small hands. Diagonal index finger is also very useful sometimes.
Try cmi7b5 with f# on top string 3rd pos. Index plays c on 5th string and f# on 1st like the above example. I use this fingering 3 or 4 times in a Moon River arrangement I play.
Actually keeping the thumb permanently in either position is perhaps wrong for jazz?
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No, the other way: I play the x3545x "standing up" on my finger tips. Then my thumb sneaks around from the bottom (the treble side) to fret the F#. You know who the guitar players are because they laugh when you do this. Originally Posted by edh
I agree that a slanted (Van Eps?) barre works too, but this is a long one, for me.
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Only if you call it "the reach around" Originally Posted by citizenk74
Just tried that. Kinky!
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hmmm....gotta try that, and also the diagonal 1st finger approach.
you guys are creative.
Ha!...love this place.
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Oh, and also a really cool way of getting from a 13th to a 7#11 (also in moon river 2 or 3 times).
say G13/G7#11/ in third pos.
3x345x then 3x342x. Play the 3 on the 6th string and the 2 on the 2nd with a diag index finger. You can play the melody notes E to C# by just lifting the pinky. Very difficult any other way!
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If it's of interest, there's a book (currently out of print) written by Dutch guitarist Wim Overgaauw, titled "The European Jazz Guitar" which contains a very informative section on thumb position chordal playing "a la" double bass. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
You can review a copy of the contents here:
European Jazz Guitar - Wim Overgaauw - Documents
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Actually I forgot one really nice Voicing I use where I do use the thumb on the low string it is a smooth sounding
Major 9b5 so a BbMajor 9b5 is
6 7 7 5 5 8 and the low E String is played with thumb.
Notice how versatile this voicing is resolving to Bmin7 or Cminor 7 or Dminor 7 F#min 7 ( two common tones on top) and many other Chords smoothly enough for a Pop Song ( a good test).
As a writer I love these type of Chords because you can create a Chorus ,Bridge etc. easily without" telegraphing "with a V chord.
Although after playing a little Jazz I may just take the easy way out ESPECIALLY on a non vocal Tune and use ii°`-V-i .
I frequently use huge sounding six note chordsLast edited by Robertkoa; 01-09-2016 at 05:10 AM.
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I once injured both thumbs in a fall. I would cry nine months after for just grabbing a cup of coffee. I lost my ability to teach, so I lost both my ability to play and my income. It took a over a year and a half before I was able to teach and play again. Now my thumbs are babied and I try to never reach over to protect them. It is hard. I have trigger thumbs now, where they get a little stuck and then pop every minute or two. I learned the thumb over the top and neck in the middle of my palm for bending and thumb in the back for chords. I recommend not doing anything that numbs or causes sharp pains. I know pro guitarists who've had surgery for carpal tunnel problems and they can't feel the pick in their hand. They will be playing and then the pick is on the floor. Take care of your hands like they cost as much as a warehouse of Benedettos.
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The classical thumb behind the neck thing has never made sense to me. You're directly opposing the force of four fingers with your thumb. Wasted energy.
Outstretch the left hand, palm up, and allow the fingers to totally relax. Now straighten/move your thumb to the left. Insert guitar neck. This creates a turning motion. Ask any physicist about 'torque' and it will all make sense. You can apply the same amount of force with less energy by creating leverage. This means less tension in the left hand. I've been using this technique for around 30 years. In all that time, I've only every seen one guitarist (some magazine article) bang on about it. I almost cheered! There must be more guitarists who use this. Anyone?
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Forgot to add, it also keeps the wrist straight.
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The point of having you thumb anywhere is to maintain a neutral, relaxed, straight wrist position. There are of course things you have to play that will require you to briefly bend the wrist but once you do, get it back to straight. I have seen John Williams hook his thumb over the neck in first position and gradually move it down as he ascended the neck. A bent wrist is a weakened and strained wrist. Don't worry about your thumb position, look at your wrist and keep it straight as much as you can.
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