Fingerstyle Technique: Thumb In or Out?

[Rob MacKillop]

Those things are incredible. I guess if you suddenly turn round with one, the whole orchestra has to duck!

A couple of my theorbo videos. Unfortunately I didn't own the instrument, and haven't managed to keep it. To be honest, it was hard work!

[Jonah]

Volume.

Never played a lute. How loud are those things compared to a classical guitar? I thought the main reason Segovia went for nails was to create projection.

In addition to Rob's answer

I compare it like guitar sound is 'arrow-like' it is more directed, aimed, more straight... lute sound is more 'bell-like' it rather dilates around...
(I'd say it is more or less general quality and differences in sound aesthetics of early instruments from modern ones - as well as the idea of 'consort' that existed even in solo playing... as modern instruments on teh contrary tend to be soloists even in a group...)

That's why depending on certain performance conditions lute can seem to sound louder than guitar...

As Rob shows there are lots of lutes also... I tried two theobos of different qualities ... I did not really get into their sonorous qualities.. I think just more time and practice needed, I feel much more comfortable with much more resonant German baroque lute...

some lute players use nails with nylon strings.. though to my mind it is a big risk becasue of lots of nusnces and double-stringed course

Heer's an interesting link that shows how the same piece of Robert De Visee is performed on four diffferent period instruments: theorbo, baroque guitar, baroque lute, harpsichord

[Rob MacKillop]

The lute player looks like she learned with Thumb In, and is trying to bring it out, as she should with this late repertoire. The video is an excellent example of how different performers and different instruments might play the same piece of music.

[Jonah]

Rob,

it's interesting enough in general.

I took lessons from Anton Birula when I began to play (you can ind his vids on youtube)... his hand is also close to that.. when he plays famous Weiss's gigue d-moll which starts with d note repetition played on the neiboughring courses (2-3) - his thumb very naturally goes in not out... the same thing in my playing too.


Xavier Diaz Lattorre has much more guitar-like technique and when I took classes from him he did not correct me

Claire Antonini is great player to me and she is focused mostly on French baroque... probably in this period it is actually quite possible to to play this 'almost hybrid' style... as well as arciliuto in Itallian baroque...

Maybe it is partly connected hands type - I noticed that players with slim hand, longer fingers are easier to play in straight thumb out... and those with smaller hands shorter fingers make more rounded hand shape for playing, like it is more comfortable for them...

[Rob MacKillop]

I think much of the modern technique comes from playing nylon strings, or nylgut, where the tendency is to play closer to the rose, obtaining a warm, mellifluous sound. These days I play all-gut, and that technique just doesn't work. I do find myself playing closer to the bridge.

[edh]

Nice job Rob. I really like the sound of the Theorbo.

[destinytot]

A couple of my theorbo videos. Unfortunately I didn't own the instrument, and haven't managed to keep it. To be honest, it was hard work!

God, that's beautiful!

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks.

[EllissonWatson]

Ha Ha Ha! This is really a good one. I like it.

[christianm77]

I just started a identical thread (I am learning the lute) - will delete. Thanks for the info!

[christianm77]

I can't find it now, but someone once posted a bunch of vids on this forum of a guy who plays a lot of George Benson tunes and some nice jazz guitar in general using this technique.

Maybe on the Benson picking thread? Hoping someone else can find it.

I wonder if volume becomes an issue. It's nail-less, right? Might be hard to keep up with any other instrument unless you're just playing solo.

I heard David Miller play a 19th century gut strung guitar with no nails, and he had no trouble projecting acoustically in the hall. He was playing with just a singer though.

Talking to him about it he said that the lower string tension of these instruments helps a lot. He said that nails are good for higher tension stringing in general, but with lower tensions stringing you can get a lot of projection without nails.

I am learning thumb in. It seems great for lute (of course) especially fast scalar passages, maybe useable on electric guitar.

I think bebop would be hard using thumb in. But it's hard with thumb out, and it's hard with a pick too haha!

[christianm77]

Thanks Jonah.

Just thinking ahead really. For the time being I'm happy to play Dowland pieces on the classical guitar. I got the Diana Poulton complete Dowland edition many years ago, so at least I can read lute tablature!

I hire a lute from the Lute Society. As are in the UK, this may well be your best bet to try and see.

You would need to join the Society. Chris Goodwin (the secretary) seems the nicest and most helpful guy imaginable....

[grahambop]

I hire a lute from the Lute Society. As are in the UK, this may well be your best bet to try and see.

You would need to join the Society. Chris Goodwin (the secretary) seems the nicest and most helpful guy imaginable....

Thanks Christian, I'll bear that in mind.

[Jonah]

Great to hear it Christian

Congratulations

[dortmundjazzguitar]

I posted link to thumb-in in concern of GB picking style... it seems to be very close to it... excep that GB still holds the pick... and lute p-i-p-i technique came to replace pick-playing when they shifted from solo to polyphonic playing... so they could play lines in 'pick' style but still have fingers free for polyphonic playing

[dortmundjazzguitar]

If someone finds the video ecj is talking about, I'd love to see it.