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Hello,
In the course of working through Mickey Baker part 1, I've been experimenting with some fingerstyle comping to spice up his exercises and I think I'm hooked. I've been searching the forums and a lot of folks have suggested doing some classical study for the right hand via Pumping Nylon or similar, so I've been experimenting with some of the exercises and also watched some youtube instruction on basic flamenco technique. I couldn't stop playing around with the Flamenco stuff, so much fun!
I'd like to pursue one of these styles to further advance my right hand fingerstyle technique to be able to apply to jazz playing down the line. Would straight classical study be the best to apply in the future, or is either sufficient? I ask because I'm sort of leaning toward the Flamenco path, with the goal of improving my right hand technique to apply to electric jazz playing down the line and initially I think I'd have more fun with it.
Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
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05-01-2015 04:44 PM
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Flamenco and classical are two completely different beasts. Flamenco is an oral tradition like the blues. Classical is a methodical approach to mastering the instrument. With that said, one of the best guitarists the planet has ever known is Paco de Lucia. His reading skills were non existent for most of his career. I read that at one point he worked on his reading specifically so he could learn and perform 'Concerto de Aranjuez'. I do not play Flamenco, but from what I have seen and learned of it, the right hand technique is not exactly the same as classical. There are similarities of course because an efficient right hand fingering in classical for something is most likely the same efficient way a skilled flamenco player would play it. In particular I think due to the golpes (the tapping on the soundbox with the right hand) and the heavy usage of the thumb, we can't say that flamenco right hand technique is the same as classical. Also, a big part of flamenco is the rasguedos which are surprisingly difficult. If you are going for pure technical mastery, go with classical. If your going for sheer badassery and you want to make the ladies swoon, go with flamenco.
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One "advantage" the classical path may offer if the benefit of structure (because of a few hundred years of methods and teachers). For instance, if you play Carcassis's Progressive and Melodious studies. It works specific "solutions" to various "problems" you will encounter with your RH. It does so in an A-Z manner, #1 being "easy" and #25 being "not easy".
Good luck!!
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i'm just looking at this part of your goal: "with the goal of improving my right hand technique to apply to electric jazz playing down the line"
i would suggest that you first closely examine the technique of successful players who do that. Joe Pass and Martin Taylor come to mind. Forum members will tell you of several more. And - it really depends on how ambitious you want to be with the right hand finger-style capability as a jazzer. there are a number of successful players who approach it differently.
it's just my opinion as both a classical player and electric plectrist, but I don't think that "real" classical guitar right hand technique translates very well to a guitar with steel strings and narrow string spacing.
others disagree with me on this point though...
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Just want to clarify -- I meant pure technical mastery of fingerstyle guitar playing. Classical guitar study will not improve your jazz improvisation chops or single note playing with a pick. And given the option between playing single note runs using fingerstyle or a pick, I'd go with a pick. This is coming from someone who played exclusively fingerstyle for the first 15 years, and relatively recently has begun working on pick technique. You just can't get the same clarity, volume & speed with fingerstyle that you can with a pick. With that said, some guitarists we associate with fingerstyle, or playing lines with their thumb, and it's a huge part of their unique sound. So I'm not arguing everyone should use a pick for single note lines. But even though I can play very fast lines with my thumb or ima fingers, I prefer the advantages of a pick. But for fingerstyle playing there is no question that classical guitar technique is the highest level of that, with flamenco a close 2nd. Classical wins because it's more methodical and all written down in books for the last few hundred years, and only recently has flamenco started becoming more organized with books and DvDs etc.
Originally Posted by Guitarzen
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Originally Posted by fumblefingers
Actually, I completely agree, kinda.... Basically, the positioning of my hand changes (I prefer thumb flesh sound for jazz), and the stroke comes less from my top knuckle joint (because if you have a powerful free stroke, you likely to be playing too loud/get buzzing etc, at least how my instruments are set up, low/fast). However I have to say either way you do it, if you do it for 1000 hours, you will be able to fingerpick most anything.
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yeah, this is oversimplified but:
knuckle stroke for classical,
PIP joint stroke for jazz
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Check his right hand
he explained to me the technique.. he actually plays from elbow.. and litterally with the second knuckle of the finger - it is completely relaxed in the first knuckle
I took classes from him.. it is far bothe from classical and flamenco as no nails involved... to me it is also very good for jazz fingerstyle ... very good sound control.. deep and warm tone
though it should be modified a bit beacuse of action
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nice playing and sound!
but i think you mean the PIP joint? FYI - the hand has only one set of "knuckles" - upper portion of the hand/base of the fingers. they're what you punch someone with.
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Thanks for the feedback so far! Sounds like diving into classical or flamenco, in a traditional sense, might not necessarily translate that well over to jazz or other steel string acoustic fingerstyle playing. I picked up a copy of Pumping Nylon, so I'm considering just working through that book on my own with my steel string acoustic and electric guitars. Seems like that may give me the best bet as far as building up good right hand finger independence and technique as applied to jazz guitar, without necessarily focusing on real classical technique?
There is a teacher nearby who is pretty advanced in both classical and flamenco, I was considering a few lessons but perhaps it is better to just work from the book on my steel string rather than focusing on true classical or flamenco techniques on a nylon string? Then again, I still do have a bit of an itch to learn some flamenco stuff :-) So many fun things to explore, so little time!
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Yeh.. thanks!)ice playing and sound!
but i think you mean the PIP joint? FYI - the hand has only one set of "knuckles" - upper portion of the hand/base of the fingers. they're what you punch someone with.
I believe Xavi is one of the best lute players now, espexially after his release of Guerau on baroque guitar - it was really his break through and outstanding record.
And It's just my English... joint, or in a more scientific word - I guess - phalanx
To study with Xavi even just few lessons was a great experience though I already played at quite an advanced level... and naturally I was just lucky to have quite nice tone... but it is not even about just tone - but more about tone control...
- actually though index finger seems to be the most secure.. in realty it turns to be the contrary.. because it is very difficult to relax it..
The other point that was interesting for me is playing off the string- like in very slow tempo you put finger tip on the string first and then play it...
not down from the air as in classical guitar
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Originally Posted by jsblock11
You may want to check out the 120 RH studies, a classical..... classic.
http://www.stormthecastle.com/classi...right-hand.pdf
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The Giuliani studies are in Pumping Nylon (in an order that Tennant thinks is more sensible).
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Originally Posted by Jehu
Ah, good to know!!! Even though it's highly recommended, I never cracked into that book. I always figured whatever was in the repertoire I was playing (which at the time was pretty high level, from Bach to The Nocturnal), was sufficient for during up my technique. Though I am sure being as rusty as I am, it would help to get me back "in shape". Maybe I will order a copy...
Thanks
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Yes, definitely go for it! I think it's the best classical technique book out there. (I was a straight classical guy for many years before I was silly enough to get into this jazz nonsense.)
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It's interesting that Weiss plants his little finger like a lot of steel string players, unlike classical or flamenco players. Is that typical for lute?
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It's allegedly historical lute technique - especially baroque lute... it's just to have the hand fixed a bit not to get lost in all these strings... it's not pressed just touches a bit.. my teacher showed me his lute saying: look it's no worn at all on the spot...
but I noticed also that about after a year of playing I began take off the pinky unconciously..
(by the way the same reason for rest strong with a thumb - if you do not do it you'll just miss the next bass most probably)
PS
It's not Weiss... Weiss is composer, and player on the vid is Xavier Diaz-Latorre)))
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By the way baroque lute players often use Sor's book (edited by Costa) for practicing techique... (on guitar)
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Old thread, but can't help chiming in: Neither classical or flamenco RH technique is very good for playing single lines. The tone is fabulous on a nylon stringed guitar, but string crossings are much, much harder. It makes a difference which finger you start with. Ideally, you plan these things out. Not great for improvising. It is also much harder to play fast, loud, and clear. Probably the best fingerstyle technique for single lines belongs to the flamenco guitarists, who can play loud and fast. It's an extremely impressive feat and very, very hard. Not worth it for the dabbler. Thumb-index alternation is a nice solution, but at that point, why not just get a pick?
And by the way, preparing the fingers on the string before playing it is well established in both classical guitar and flamenco. It is probably the most common way for American classical guitarists to play.
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I know this is an old thread, but as a classical/flamenco guitarist who has been obsessed with jazz over the last year or two, I would say there are some benefits and drawbacks. As CactusWren states, some of those single lines are a million times easier with a pick, but if you wanted to go for finger style, I would say flamenco technique would be superior. On the other hand, I find playing some of the Joe Pass stuff on a nylon string guitar to be significantly easier than on the electric, granted that could be from the years of playing classical. I am becoming pretty comfortable improvising single lines with flamenco technique, but there was definitely a learning curve, and I was glad for those hours of practicing awkward right hand string crossing.
As far as technique goes, the school of flamenco I've been studying (cano roto, el Viejin is the main guitarist), and several other schools, they tend to plant their thumb on a bass string and use that as a reference, or if they're playing with the thumb, plant index and middle on the high e string.
If you want a great flamenco album to check out, listen to El Viejin's album Algo que Decir.
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Being Spanish, I can say that, apart from Paco de Lucia (who was from another planet), there´s nothing, to me, like Tomatito.
Check out these jazz sessions with Michel Camilo playing piano..
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