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I have spent the last two weeks pretty much doing exercises in my renewed search for speed. Before that, I had been playing slowly over chord progressions honing my improvisational skills and after a few months, I found that I could not longer play at previous higher tempos that I used to be able to reach.
So after having to drop my metronome waaaaayyy down on some exercises I use, after a week or so, I am starting to see improvement. I feel that if I could keep this up for a few weeks, I could get pretty darn fast but I wonder if my genetic limits are high enough to allow me to play some of the fast tempos I am after.
This all started after looking again at a Martin Miller video and then visiting the Jamtracks website, which has a lot of fast players tearing it up.
Do any of you want to increase your ability to play at higher tempos? If so, are you putting in the work along with your other practicing? Do you just not want to put in the work? Maybe you feel like you are fast enough and even though you know you could get faster, you just don't have the need to pursue it.
Thoughts?
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04-10-2015 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
A few weeks won't get you anywhere. A few years on the other hand.....
The real problem is transferring that speed from exercises to the real world. There is no 1 answer, except lots and lots of practice.Last edited by vintagelove; 04-10-2015 at 08:00 PM.
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I am finding out there is a reason that with every fast playing guitar great there are stories of hours and hours behind closed doors practicing. And as Micheal Schenker and Eddie Van Halen said, there is a price to pay, either in social development or in some other fashion.
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I think that if you do stuff like playing over chord progressions and honing improvisational skills, not just working on playing speed, then you are building a house. Speed will take longer develop as one part of the sum of the entire construction.
Just getting to 200bpm @ 16th notes for a 1234 finger exercise alone, would take less time to achieve, but would be like doing the electrics for a house but nothing else, no foundations (rhythm), walls (rules of theory), water (creativity) etc.
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Not that I'm particularly fast, but what works for me is transcribing fast solos by my heroes, memorizing them, and playing along with slow down software and gradually dialing up the tempo until I've reached my limit. I do exercises and stuff out of various lick books, but memorizing solos is the key to fast soloing for me. I could be wrong, but I doubt anybody became a good fast player by focusing mostly on speed exercises.
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I think you are not wrong. Musical memory, IMO, is maybe the most important skill, or is it ability, there is.
- Anybody can play 4 chromatics in a fraction of a second.
- The most of people can play short patterns, of about 1 - 3 bars of music length at hi speeds.
- Many people can play 2 octave scales and licks of about 4 bars length very, very fast.
- More and more people concentrated on technical practice can play over 2 octaves connected scales and 4 - 8 bars extended licks incredibly fast
- Not too many people can play memorized solos (with some variation) of at least 8 bars long, at high tempos (over 240 bpm), even if exclusively made of am scales, patterns and licks.
- Very few people can really play, not really simple music, memorized, or improvised, really fast.
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When I was young I wanted to play fast. I still wish I could blaze but I realized that if I made the goal 'getting out of my own way,' it would help all of my playing and also speed.
For me, Benson picking (-as gleaned from the JC Stylles tutorial and a month of coaching) has done me more good than everything else I have tried.
I'm not 'there' yet but what I've noticed is that my 'floor' is much more secure, and as it strengthens and rises, my reliable top end (-not just the flashy lick I have played ten thousand times and can play as fast as I want anytime but the tempo I can 'hang') increases too. This is April; I think by year's end I will be faster and all-around better.
I'm not doing many conventional speed exercises though. (I am playing Jimmy Bruno's 'five fingerings' in all twelve keys daily and doing a warm-up based on the major scale in six keys daily, which will be twelve soon.)
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I'm less concerned with getting more speed now and more concerned with being able to actually say something in my solo when I get to the upper reaches of what my speed allows.
If I can maximize that...you can bet I'll look to see if I can take it higher.
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=RDH...xk&mode=NORMAL
take an hour or two and watch the
Hal Galper teaching youtubes
best thing I've done for ages ...
He answers these questions directly
real real .... Wisdom there
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Hi mr b, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
you are very wise too !
i'm now concerned with 'being able to actually say something' at any flippin tempo !
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Well, ain't that the truth!!!
Or rather, something worth saying. I can say a lot on a ballad...but...
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I used to practice speed intentionally, but it didn't seem to work at all. Like Mark, I've made the transition to Benson picking and I'm noticing real improvements in the speed department, even though I don't practice specifically for speed now. The only technical exercises I do now is playing arpeggios and scales to review them, and pick a lick and practice it in all keys, all over the neck. I concentrate on improving my creative skills, and I think my speed will naturally evolve with them.
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do not do like that...:
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AMEN! Hearing faster!
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the obsession with speed is a major roadblock to many new to guitar (music)
yeah johnny Mclaughlin can play fast..he knows how to..he is NOT playing random notes hoping they "fit" (first mahavishnu album-tells that..)
but then there is alan holdsworth..playing a nice wide spaced melody with shimmering chords..at a nice med tempo..then he throws in a blazing run that is not a predictable scale but very tasty and works well in "context"
so do these guys sit around and work on getting "faster" or as I see it..speed developed over time in their playing..it was not forced into their playing..it was not separate in their playing..it was Part of their playing..
I now can play scale/arps much faster today than 5 yrs ogo..and I don't have to think about fingering at all..and I can string together several "fast" lines with no noticeable break so it sounds like one line ..now fitting this kind of stuff "in context" may be a different story..its one thing to use this kind of stuff in your own compositions..quite another to fit "speed" into "standards" lets say..without some woodshedding..throwing a fast scale/arp run over a ii-V type may work ..but it may not work in the body of a song..due to melodic/harmonic dictates.. so taste becomes a factor when using speed..the above vid is an example of sloppy execution .. the speed is not saying anything but "hey im playing a lot of notes" yes you are..so what..it pretty far away from johnny M...
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I think Django Reinhard played fast and he did it only two fingers.
Attachment 19686
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Being able to play at fast tempos is part of the jazz thing in my view. But not everyone has the same number of white cells, or whatever it is that allows for rapid twitch movements. So there is some compromise ie how to sound fast, but with minimal effort. The main obstacles are picking and the guitar geography. Arpeggios and inside-the-string picking are barriers. The gypsy guys have probably nailed that problem with down, down, up picking. Position changes are a problem and usually requires sliding either up or down the neck. So finding comfortable and effective slide notes and positions is the challenge. The downside is quality of tone is lost when individual notes are not picked. Hammer-on and pull-offs offer huge speed advantages because the pick is redundant. Although the effect (Scofield) can be pleasing, there is nothing like legato (Martino) to get the full sense of high tempo playing. Sweeping arpeggios are effective but are musically limited devices. So, as someone has suggested, hard work and tons of practice is the way to go, but it carries a cost. When they dissected Paganini's hand after he died, expecting to find god-like tendons, they were surprised to find very worn joints from excessive practice. He was mortal after all.
For myself I have found that four things help develop speed.
1. I always practice with a metronome gradually speeding it up in equal small increments.
2. I find the path of least resistance for fast licks, so notes that are clustered closely together between the 3 and 12 frets.
3. Choosing licks that I have been playing for many years happen so automatically they can be played much faster. Familiarity and muscular memory removes the thinking process which slows playing down.
4. Good old practice ...go for the burn. Strong muscles increase speed and endurance. Push the boundaries of your limits each day.
I think about speed as largely creating an effect. What sounds great when played fast can sound mundane when slowed down. Devices such as repetition are also effective and provide useful breathing spaces.
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+1,
At this stage of my development speed is not even on the agenda.
I find the tempo at which I can play what I'm working on 10 times without a mistake, then I turn up the metronome 1 notch and start going for the 10 again.
I'm shooting for accuracy as well as speed.
Last edited by Paully; 05-01-2015 at 04:14 PM.
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Im striving to play fast, but it has to involve even greater complexity like you mentioned earlier, otherwise it can end up dull. One thing i notice with Holdsworth for example is his ability to alter the tempo during his fast runs, its done with such control at times it almost sounds robotic.
The Benson chop at 4:55 is a great example of how one can go berserk while still remaining hip
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It's about hearing at that speed. If you can conceptualise a worthwhile musical statement at any given tempo.
That's one thing tempo. And another thing is rhythm. Whether you can hear and construct phrases at that rhythm as well. Generally when you're going to go fast, you'll play 16th notes. It's important to be able to hear things that make sense at a rhythm of 16 notes per bar. There's a difference between 8th notes at 240 bpm and 16th notes at 120 bpm. Technically you need to know how to phrase it so it swings.
Listen to people who do this a lot, sing along with their solos(or just parts of solos you like) and transcribe and play them along with the original recording and backing track at the fastest tempo you can manage. This will automatically increase your speed as well without isolating it from other factors. The speed itself is secondary and will just creep up on you one day without realising.Last edited by pushkar000; 05-02-2015 at 07:19 AM.
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Hi,
Have you thought that the problem may not be in your fingering hand but with your plectrum hand?
I bought a Robert Conti book and he enclosed a couple of Dunlop .34 mm picks because he believes in them.
With them I could fly all over the board. I don't use them any more, primarily due to the irritating clicking sound they make when I'm practicing acoustically, but on the other hand I no longer use the 3mm picks I thought were necessary for playing jazz.
You should check out his playing videos on YouTube - not the pale imitations by his students but the one's taken at gigs and you'll know a man can fly!
Now when I think, (due to lack of practice,) I've lost the technique, I switch down to some very thin lightweight picks and start to build up my right hand again.
By the way, tremelo picking is excellent for building up right hand strength, though I'm pretty sure there is a physical limit to the speed guitar players are supposed to play in order to transmit ideas, rather than show off technical facility.
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I bought that same book ("Precision Technique," right?) form Conti and got those picks with it. I've bought more since. I use Medium picks now (-around .73), which is still down from the heavy / thick picks I used for years. The .38 is too whispery for me now but it helped me make a much needed transition. And yeah, Conti can fly. Originally Posted by nu_mike
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I suspect there is a more or less fixed limit, probably determined by biology (but perhaps determined by how young one started focusing on technique) for each person's speed. You have to become a half decent player before you can really tell what that limit is, and certainly what you play is an ingredient in how fast you can play. How in shape your chops are are is a big factor. But I think these only make a few percent difference in how fast you can play.
Internet forum advice/bravado notwithstanding, I suspect the number of jazz guitarists who can play interesting jazz lines cleanly in mostly swinging 8th notes at 260bpm or above is very small, no matter how much they practice. Improv aside, I bet the number who can play the head to Donna Lee cleanly at 280bmp is also very small. Has anybody other than Jack Zucker ever posted anything that fast to this forum? The kind of speed we hear from our heroes is a part of what makes them great. Even Grant Green, Jim Hall, Bickert, Bernstein, and others who are not thought of as fast, actually can play quite fast, as one can tell by transcribing and trying to play along.
For myself, I can practice a bunch of speed things, picking techniques, metronome exercises, etc, and get my speed up a bit in the practice room. But on the gig, any bebop tune above 230bmp is going to cause me problems when I get away from my pet licks even when my chops are as strong as they get. I would love to be proven wrong, shown some secret technique that will allow me to break the barrier I've been stuck at for 38 years of jazz guitar playing. But the fact that there are so few guitarists who can play fast well, despite the fact that almost all of us want to, seems to signal that there is a personal limit that is largely independent of how hard you work at speed itself. I have to get my enjoyment from other aspects of playing, because speed just doesn't seem to be something I have access to.
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Originally Posted by pkirk
Have you ever tried economy picking? It "solves" a lot of the "problems" one runs into with strict alternate picking.
Also, the example of donna lee is an interesting one. BTW I just checked and cold (no warm up or practice) I was able to play it 90% clean at 280. Really only the line after the b dim arp would give me some grief (and may be worth me looking at another fingering, playing legato etc.) Anyway the point was, playing a head, and improvising are two very different things. Second, trying to play sax lines at that speed in your improv just isn't going to work. You have to embrace what is idiomatic to your instrument and learn to go with it, even if it doesn't sound like Bird. That is part of what Mr. Zucker can play what he does, oh, and lots and lots and lots of years of hard work.
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Not calling you out, but why don't let us hear it and see it? I mean, if you feel like it and think you've found something to learn on the forum, maybe it's time to give something back? Seeing the way someone does it may be of help to many, in overcoming technical obstacles.
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