Gypsy downstrokes

[christianm77]

Interesting topic of discussion. I've wondered these things myself. The alternate picking = bebop thing has turned into a bit of a guitar meme. In fact, it seems alt picking is better suited to more contemporary styles of playing (which may of course include bebop vocab.)

Anyway, I think it's good to practice both. I like the smooth, legato sound you can get with alternate picking. And then there's the downstroke on the beat, upstroke on the upbeat thing which I know a few guys do, and again they get a smooth, almost keyboard like sound.

With downstroke/reststroke picking you get more phrased feel though, I think. If that makes any sense. Some notes are louder some softer, and there's a bit of a bounce to it.

[christianm77]

Evan,
As a former student at GIT in the 80s, I can say that this isn't true. Joe was a regular teacher and counselor when I was there and he talked about his picking many times. During the 80s, little was known of gypsy picking outside of Europe and there was certainly a major disconnect with old school jazz guitar picking in the USA. The strict alternating free stroke picking may have originated at some other music school and, at that time, was certainly a part of rock guitar but it definitely didn't originate at GIT.
Regards,
Jerome

What did Joe say about his picking?

[Jazzmanouchelessons]

[MarkRhodes]

I was just watching a segment of video with Jimmy Bruno talking about how he has worked on an approach to picking that mixes up-down, down up with just up and then just down.

In his book "The Art of Picking," Jimmy teaches changing with a downstroke when ascending (such as from the B to high E string) and an upstroke when ascending (such as from the high E to B string.)

[edh]

Well done(vid). Also nice tone from your guitar.

[MarkRhodes]

This thread is fascinating. I appreciate all the different takes on things.

I'm not an expert on any kind of guitar picking, so I'm just listening for now.

[pubylakeg]

Yeah Joe is the great counter example to the 'gypsy picking is no good for bop' - actually it wouldn't surprise me if Tal Farlow didn't use a similar approach - does anyone know?

Tal would use alternate picking for single note lines, and sweep pick or rake arpeggios.

He also used hybrid (pick and fingers) style for his octaves playing,

He also liked to play chords with upstrokes, to emphasise the melody note in his voicings.

He also frequently picked single note lines with his right hand thumb, "for a laid back, Lester Young type sound".

[vsaumarez]

There's no doubt in my mind going down (or up) across the strings has a huge advantage since you've decreased the travel space for the pick. Playing arpeggios is where it really comes into its own and Frank Gambale lets us know that an electric is well suited to that technique. Where the alternate picking falls down IMO is 'down up' descending where you play down and then up on the string that sits above. I've never mastered that and don't bother trying since the pick needs to travel back up over the first string in a contra motion so you've already lost momentum. Up, up, down is the way to go but I never mastered that either so I just avoid those situations. So the gypsy method is probably superior for speed and arpeggiated playing. However, a lot of jazz uses intervals that means you have to skip a string and although I haven't tried a down stroke in these situations, I'd think alternate picking may be more efficient. You hear many players using hammer-ons and pull-offs and I often wonder if that is to compensate for the shortfalls of alternate picking, for effect, or just because picking is bind anyway.

[christianm77]

There's no doubt in my mind going down (or up) across the strings has a huge advantage since you've decreased the travel space for the pick. Playing arpeggios is where it really comes into its own and Frank Gambale lets us know that an electric is well suited to that technique. Where the alternate picking falls down IMO is 'down up' descending where you play down and then up on the string that sits above. I've never mastered that and don't bother trying since the pick needs to travel back up over the first string in a contra motion so you've already lost momentum. Up, up, down is the way to go but I never mastered that either so I just avoid those situations. So the gypsy method is probably superior for speed and arpeggiated playing. However, a lot of jazz uses intervals that means you have to skip a string and although I haven't tried a down stroke in these situations, I'd think alternate picking may be more efficient. You hear many players using hammer-ons and pull-offs and I often wonder if that is to compensate for the shortfalls of alternate picking, for effect, or just because picking is bind anyway.

Personally I find that string skipping using gypsy picking is not much harder than playing adjacent strings at most tempos. I play a lot of these type of licks - broken arpeggios etc.

I think picking sounds better with hammer ons and pull offs. Picking itself can sound a bit dakkadakkadakkadakka. I wouldn't mind a bit more ligado in my playing, I think it would sound good.