John Stowell

[rio]

Great playing and great sound. Thanks for sharing. I wish I could reach some of those voicings!

Edit: Cavalier - the position is so he can get those voicings. I think...I haven't read anything with him talking about it but I would guess that is why.


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[Lobomov]

Edit: Cavalier - the position is so he can get those voicings. I think...I haven't read anything with him talking about it but I would guess that is why.

If you watch his Truefire courses then you'll see him explain it and yes, your guess is correct. It is in order to make the big stretches that comes will those voicings playable.

[Cavalier]

Thanks guys, that makes sense. Tal Farlow had a edge there. playing around with it you use the pads of the fingers instead of the tips to get the stretch. There isn't any wrist angle which is good, just the sharp elbow angle.

[skykomishone]

Very cool Jim. Thanks. John Stowell is an awesome musician and cool human being. Somewhat of a mystery to me how he can hear the things he does and execute them so effortlessly. I feel like I've ran a marathon after listening to him for a couple of sets, and it's always great when he plays with other guitar players. I don't think I've ever seen him playing a traditional archtop, and I've seen him at least a half dozen times live.

[yebdox]

John was playing a 295 when I first heard him on moving to Portland in '78, stuck with that for many years, then started moving into the solid body and custom world. I know Mr. Soloway had a long affiliation with him, as did Mike Doolin, both of whom are retired from building. But, like all great artists, John always sounds like John.

Here's a nice clip on a 175:

[Jim Soloway]

Thanks guys, that makes sense. Tal Farlow had a edge there. playing around with it you use the pads of the fingers instead of the tips to get the stretch. There isn't any wrist angle which is good, just the sharp elbow angle.

Tal Farlow had hands the size of large shovels. Unless one is similarly blessed, he really isn't a realistic example for most of us. John has relatively small hands and yet using his vertical position, he makes intervals that most of us can't even consider. I've tried it and it doesn't work for me for the exact reason that you cite: I can't get comfortable with the wrist angle but he's been doing it for about 50 years and it works for him beautifully. Steve Herberman is another player who has a vertical playing angle (although with the entire guitar lower) and again, manages tremendous fingerboard coverage. He also seems to reduce the wrist angle by having the guitar lower to begin with.

[yebdox]

If you try it, you will see how it facilitates wide grips; there are some Tommy Emmanuel tunes that seem impossible (for me) until I change the neck angle. I just can't get used to playing that way. John's playing is hard to emulate without large hands, unless you try his position.

On the other hand, Dave Stryker plays with the neck almost perfectly horizontal, though he doesn't seem to use those wide grips like John does. I know Dave, but don't recall the size of his hands. But trying to play with a horizontal neck is equally hard on my wrists.

There's a reason why John almost always plays sitting down, often with a pillow on his thigh to keep his guitar positioned the way he likes.

[Cavalier]

It is a bit like the position for a sitar. For sure there is no one way to play anything. As we are all put together differently it is important to find what works for yourself.

[Jim Soloway]

It is a bit like the position for a sitar. For sure there is no one way to play anything. As we are all put together differently it is important to find what works for yourself.

Agreed. It's also important to have a position that works for both hands, not just the left.

[Cavalier]

Very true, ideally the whole body is considered.

[whiskey02]

John is a great talent but I don't think that tele sounds good at all. I think it sounds terrible tbh.

[DanielleOM]

I don't see an instrument cable in the video. I often find that gets in the way.

[whiskey02]

Any position, height, angle that allows you to have a base line posture of a straight wrist on your fretting hand is a good position.

[Jim Soloway]

Any position, height, angle that allows you to have a base line posture of a straight wrist on your fretting hand is a good position.

I've always read that but I've never quite understood why it should be so. My wrist is almost always bent at a relatively sharp angle but kept reasonably loose. I've been playing that way for about 55 years and never had a problem.

[Herbie]

John is a great talent but I don't think that tele sounds good at all. I think it sounds terrible tbh.

Well, it certainly has not that 'twang' thing people like about tele's!

I like this tele sound too, it reminds me of piano!

[whiskey02]

I've always read that but I've never quite understood why it should be so. My wrist is almost always bent at a relatively sharp angle but kept reasonably loose. I've been playing that way for about 55 years and never had a problem.

Think about when you pick up your guitar case and carry it, you do so with your wrist straight, that is the position in which you are strongest, you're not straining nerves and tendons. You wouldn't pick up the case and twist your wrist to aim your knuckles at your leg, you'd feel pain pretty quickly. You'd be over taxing smaller muscles while putting your joints at an inefficient angle and putting pressure on nerves by making them bend at sharp angles. Pick up your case and try to hold it for 5 minutes having your wrist bent in or outwards. It won't take 5 minutes to realize that a straight wrist is more stable and stronger.

[Jim Soloway]

Think about when you pick up your guitar case and carry it, you do so with your wrist straight, that is the position in which you are strongest, you're not straining nerves and tendons. You wouldn't pick up the case and twist your wrist to aim your knuckles at your leg, you'd feel pain pretty quickly. You'd be over taxing smaller muscles while putting your joints at an inefficient angle and putting pressure on nerves by making them bend at sharp angles. Pick up your case and try to hold it for 5 minutes having your wrist bent in or outwards. It won't take 5 minutes to realize that a straight wrist is more stable and stronger.

Honestly, I don't see much relationship between carrying a case and playing a guitar. My wrist only plays a tangential role in my playing. Mostly I play with my fingers. My primary concern with the position of my wrist in not strength but rather putting my fingers in the optimal position to maximize free board coverage.

[whiskey02]

Well Jim the only "relationship" is that a primarily straight wrist is more relaxed and less prone to fatigue and injury. As you know there are no muscles to speak of in your fingers, the muscles that do their work are in the forearms. Relax and hold your left arm with its wrist straight and use your other hand to touch the muscles of your left forearm. Move the fingers of the left arm as if fretting notes and you'll feel the muscles moving, contracting and relaxing. Now leave the fingers still, and flex your left wrist left and right and you'll feel those forearm muscles contract and stay contracted until you return the wrist to a neutral straight position. So without so much as playing a single note having a bent wrist recruits and stresses without relief the very muscles that move your fingers where you want them to go. The more extreme the deviation/amount of bend, the more the forearm muscles are activated.
Now we all know you play quite well, so whatever you are doing it's working for you. We all have different bodies, levels of flexibility, previous injuries, etc. I personally do not have the greatest flexibility and I have had CT surgery and I'm sure that makes me more sensitive to, and aware of what my body is feeling.

[Jim Soloway]

Well Jim the only "relationship" is that a primarily straight wrist is more relaxed and less prone to fatigue and injury. As you know there are no muscles to speak of in your fingers, the muscles that do their work are in the forearms. Relax and hold your left arm with its wrist straight and use your other hand to touch the muscles of your left forearm. Move the fingers of the left arm as if fretting notes and you'll feel the muscles moving, contracting and relaxing. Now leave the fingers still, and flex your left wrist left and right and you'll feel those forearm muscles contract and stay contracted until you return the wrist to a neutral straight position. So without so much as playing a single note having a bent wrist recruits and stresses without relief the very muscles that move your fingers where you want them to go. The more extreme the deviation/amount of bend, the more the forearm muscles are activated.
Now we all know you play quite well, so whatever you are doing it's working for you. We all have different bodies, levels of flexibility, previous injuries, etc. I personally do not have the greatest flexibility and I have had CT surgery and I'm sure that makes me more sensitive to, and aware of what my body is feeling.

The reason I've always questioned the straight wrist is because any time I've tried it (usually immediately after reading about the "horrors of playing with a bent wrist"). I find that it also requires that I pull my elbow out from my side and as soon as I do that it turns my hand downward so that my fingers are no longer parallel to the frets. That parallel position of my fingers is what allows me to maximize my fingerboard coverage, especially reaching vertically up the neck.

On the other hand, I know that there are a lot of small things in my playing position that are "unconventional" at best so it may be that my playing with a bent wrist is a direct result of the cumulative effect of those idiosyncrasies. Those idiosyncrasies are far too ingrained into every aspect of my playing at this point to even want to change them. And perhaps that's why I also prefer a lightly strung guitar. My fingerboard coverage is good but without a really light setup I struggle because I don't really have much strength. That may well be the result of playing with a bent wrist. BTW, Stowell also plays with light strings, no relief and very low action. I suspect his playing position makes the same trade-off as mine: increased fret board coverage in exchange for less finger strength.

[Cavalier]

Years ago a friend had carpel tunnel and went to a sports medicine therapist, I tagged along to see what I could learn and indeed a straight line maximizes blood flow and minimizes tendon strain as motion is starting from neutral versus pre stress. Hands also lose muscle tone quickly so daily exercise is important. Whole body positioning is important to maximize circulation as kinking your veins in one place will slow down flow to another. I think I got more out of the sessions than she did as I applied what I learned to violin and guitar playing. Obviously there is no one right position as everybody is built differently and are playing different models of guitars. Like many things in life it comes down to compromise to achieve the most benefits with the least harm and impact on your playing.

The western instruments that come to mind with a more vertical positioning are the cello and the old viol family. For your left hand the fingering is great but the right hand in that position is better suited to bowing than using a pick. All fun stuff to play around with while looking for new approaches.

[rlrhett]

I find the more I play, the more I find the neck going from horizontal to vertical. Im currently just past 45deg.

I think that by the time I'm in my eighties I'll have passed vertical and will be playing the thing left handed!


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[rictroll]

Isn't the traditional classical position 45 degrees?

[GuyBoden]

I heard John Stowell play in Wales UK in the late 1990's, I was mesmerised both by his music and his technique.

I bought a Hofner John Stowell model soon after and do try to play some modern chord melody.

It's a nice guitar for sitting and playing, but a bit neck heavy for standingup. That's because it was not designed for standingup playing. I have changed the bridge to a heavier steel bridge.

[dmozell]

Wow! Wonderful, non-mechanical phrasing and dynamics. I really can't see a pick, at least on my phone.

[omphalopsychos]

A couple of years ago I bought a Grez Mendocino out of curiosity for the unique design: thinline, almost entirely hollow, all solid carved. I have praised it several times on this forum as the liveliest electric guitar I own. I never got around to demoing it, but I just saw a video of John Stowell playing some unaccompanied solo guitar on it and thought people should check it out. The sound is there, but the thing you can't experience from this video is how fun a guitar it is to play, as you get to feel all the vibrations with every attack. I know the Music Emporium in Boston has started to carry these, so if there's anyone out in the northeast that is curious, I recommend you check them out. I would be really curious how this compares to Joe Yanuziello's guitars, which are very similar in construction principles.