Fast players that use traditional alternate picking with normal grip

[fumblefingers]

I probably was not clear, but you construed it correctly.

Tal is exactly what I am talking about - a blazing fast guitarist that uses alternate picking and holds the pick the traditional way.

I would definitely include sweeps and hybrid picking in the category of "traditional."

Thanks.

yes, except it's not alternate if you sweep much more than arpeggios on adjacent strings. Hope that's clear...

[MarkRhodes]

I posted a vid in the Players section on a thread called "Frank Vignola: 'I pick mostly down.'"
The video is of him and Bucky Pizarelli doing a clinic. When asked about his picking, Frank said it was "mostly down." (And he can play real fast.) He said Django played mostly down (-except for tremolo passages), that George Barnes and Charlie Christian played mostly downstrokes, and that Les Paul did too.

You can look for it there, or I could cross-post it here.

[AlsoRan]

I posted a vid in the Players section on a thread called "Frank Vignola: 'I pick mostly down.'"
The video is of him and Bucky Pizarelli doing a clinic. When asked about his picking, Frank said it was "mostly down." (And he can play real fast.) He said Django played mostly down (-except for tremolo passages), that George Barnes and Charlie Christian played mostly downstrokes, and that Les Paul did too.

You can look for it there, or I could cross-post it here.

Supposedly, so did T-Bone Walker, although he was not known as a really fast player.

[fumblefingers]

Yep......That's the one I mentioned.

"Cracking the Code"

You'll see Jimmy Bruno and Mike Stern for starters....of particular interest to jazzers.

I did some "research " on Mike Stern.......verrry interrrresting.

[extra R's for those of a certain age]

what are you referring to regarding Fat Time? His coke and Cognac days or his picking?

[fumblefingers]

I posted a vid in the Players section on a thread called "Frank Vignola: 'I pick mostly down.'"
The video is of him and Bucky Pizarelli doing a clinic. When asked about his picking, Frank said it was "mostly down." (And he can play real fast.) He said Django played mostly down (-except for tremolo passages), that George Barnes and Charlie Christian played mostly downstrokes, and that Les Paul did too.

You can look for it there, or I could cross-post it here.

Does he mean Gypsy Pick I wonder?

also, regarding a post by someone above, do Bireli and Andreas really use strict alternate or do they Gypsy pick?

[MarkRhodes]

Supposedly, so did T-Bone Walker, although he was not known as a really fast player.

T-Bone was not really fast but he is harder to emulate than many of the people he influenced. He had a sure sense of time and mixed phrase rhythms well. He's one of those players who make you realize, "it's not as easy as it looks..."

But Frank Vignola can play very fast. Here he is doing a Gypsy-esque "Flight of the Bumblebee." (Not my favorite piece of his but it does show he can play fast and clean despite picking "mostly down.")

[MarkRhodes]

Does he mean Gypsy Pick I wonder?

also, regarding a post by someone above, do Bireli and Andreas really use strict alternate or do they Gypsy pick?

Frank can Gypsy Pick (if by that you mean rest stroke picking). He's well-versed in that. He said he likes to play "mostly down" because it gives him more control and keeps him from playing too fast!

Now, if one Benson picks, the difference between down strokes and upstrokes is less distinct, so there's little point to playing "mostly down" (except maybe on a head or a riff.)

[fumblefingers]

Frank can Gypsy Pick (if by that you mean rest stroke picking). He's well-versed in that. He said he likes to play "mostly down" because it gives him more control and keeps him from playing too fast!

Now, if one Benson picks, the difference between down strokes and upstrokes is less distinct, so there's little point to playing "mostly down" (except maybe on a head or a riff.)

I haven't paid a lot of attention to gypsy picking but I thought that someone once explained it as being similar to economy picking except that down strokes were also used when navigating from higher pitched to lower pitched strings.

that would be a "mostly down" approach alright...

[MarkRhodes]

I haven't paid a lot of attention to gypsy picking but I thought that someone once explained it as being similar to economy picking except that down strokes were also used when navigating from higher pitched to lower pitched strings.

that would be a "mostly down" approach alright...

I thought the habit was to a use downstroke when going from lower to higher strings... Joe Pass said he learned to change with a downstroke, regardless of direction higher or lower, because it added definition.

I think the key to Gypsy picking is the rest stroke. When you strike a note on, say, the A string, the pick continues past the string and comes to a rest on the next string (in this case, the D string.) I think this makes for more forceful strokes and generates volume, but with electric guitars, the need to generate volume with such forceful pick strokes goes away.

I'm not sure that economy pickers regard their approach as "mostly down." Maybe some will chime in here and let us know.

[marcwhy]

Chris Crocco is definitely fluid and uses "standard" right hand stuff (what he actually plays is not standard, though!):
[piano solo is nice, but guitar starts at 4:00]

[Moonray]

Hey fumblefingers

I was referring to research on his picking technique as demonstrated
here : Code Archive: Mike Stern | Troy Grady ? Guitarist

You pay five bucks and get around 40 clips of Mike Stern playing bits
of his vocabulary.
The clips are played at tempo, then successively slowed down but with
incredibly clear photography so you can see every movement in great detail.
You also get pdf's ....so if you like any of the licks, or simply want to test
yourself....you got it.

Re Mike's history......that has well covered.....so let's move on to his great work.

[fumblefingers]

I thought the habit was to a use downstroke when going from lower to higher strings... Joe Pass said he learned to change with a downstroke, regardless of direction higher or lower, because it added definition.

I think the key to Gypsy picking is the rest stroke. When you strike a note on, say, the A string, the pick continues past the string and comes to a rest on the next string (in this case, the D string.) I think this makes for more forceful strokes and generates volume, but with electric guitars, the need to generate volume with such forceful pick strokes goes away.

I'm not sure that economy pickers regard their approach as "mostly down." Maybe some will chime in here and let us know.

Was talking about gypsy not economy. Economy minimizes direction changes as far as I understand.

[Kojo27]

I thought the habit was to a use downstroke when going from lower to higher strings... Joe Pass said he learned to change with a downstroke, regardless of direction higher or lower, because it added definition.

I think the key to Gypsy picking is the rest stroke. When you strike a note on, say, the A string, the pick continues past the string and comes to a rest on the next string (in this case, the D string.) I think this makes for more forceful strokes and generates volume, but with electric guitars, the need to generate volume with such forceful pick strokes goes away.

I'm not sure that economy pickers regard their approach as "mostly down." Maybe some will chime in here and let us know.

I've delved into a lot of right-hand techniques (never the Benson approach, though), and always come back to standard grip, pick mostly from wrist, but use whatever it takes. (Thinking strongly about ditching the pick altogether...)

The Gypsy picking, as Mark said, relies on the rest-stroke. However, the Gypsy pickers not only change to a downstroke with every string change (ascending AND descending), but they also do the rest-stroke with every string change. The "cocked" wrist is also an element of the style.

I think the best book on plectrum use I've ever seen is Michael Horowitz's superb book, Gypsy Picking. This is the last word on the topic, imho. He teaches the blistering single-note picking technique in the most easy-to-follow detail, and claims to have condensed the whole technique to a few dozen picking "patterns" - see the picture below for just one of these. Note the detailed directions. Try this with guitar and pick in hand to see just how the rest-strokes and switch-to-downs come into building such amazing speed. Remember that, with each string change, a rest-stroke happens. This will seem awkward at first, but with a relaxed wrist, and several months of practice, it becomes fast -- very fast. However, it's a staccato style and, as Horowitz points out, doesn't at first lend itself well to bebop or blues. He happens to play bebop, though, and has made the approach work, as has Bireli Lagrene.

Gypsy picking is nothing like the kind of "economy picking" practiced by Jimmy Bruno. It's probably 90% downs. Lots of 'ups' in this exercise, however.

[princeplanet]

I've delved into a lot of right-hand techniques (never the Benson approach, though), and always come back to standard grip, pick mostly from wrist, but use whatever it takes. (Thinking strongly about ditching the pick altogether...)

The Gypsy picking, as Mark said, relies on the rest-stroke. However, the Gypsy pickers not only change to a downstroke with every string change (ascending AND descending), but they also do the rest-stroke with every string change. The "cocked" wrist is also an element of the style.

I think the best book on plectrum use I've ever seen is Michael Horowitz's superb book, Gypsy Picking. This is the last word on the topic, imho. He teaches the blistering single-note picking technique in the most easy-to-follow detail, and claims to have condensed the whole technique to a few dozen picking "patterns" - see the picture below for just one of these. Note the detailed directions. Try this with guitar and pick in hand to see just how the rest-strokes and switch-to-downs come into building such amazing speed. Remember that, with each string change, a rest-stroke happens. This will seem awkward at first, but with a relaxed wrist, and several months of practice, it becomes fast -- very fast. However, it's a staccato style and, as Horowitz points out, doesn't at first lend itself well to bebop or blues. He happens to play bebop, though, and has made the approach work, as has Bireli Lagrene.

Gypsy picking is nothing like the kind of "economy picking" practiced by Jimmy Bruno. It's probably 90% downs. Lots of 'ups' in this exercise, however.

Playing consecutive downstrokes on adjacent strings as shown in the excerpt above doesn't make sense to me if speed is what you're after. For 3 notes on the high E string, then B string etc, try: up down up then up down up etc. Feels weird to play begin triplets on up strokes, but it works.

[Kojo27]

Playing consecutive downstrokes on adjacent strings as shown in the excerpt above doesn't make sense to me if speed is what you're after. For 3 notes on the high E string, then B string etc, try: up down up then up down up etc. Feels weird to play begin triplets on up strokes, but it works.

I apologize that this hijacked the thread - I didn't notice. Sorry guys.

Just to say quickly (it's already hijacked?) - it seems to me one big reasons the Gypsy players pick so mind-bogglingly fast is that there's never any doubt about up or downstroke. 50 Gypsy players would pick most passages pretty-much the same. It comes from tenor banjo plectrum technique, I believe, and is highly codified. So muscle memory is working from the get-go, and these principles let one move the pick (consider the hand position, too) extremely fast - it does seem weird at first.

Some bluegrass flatpickers keep up with banjo solos, and get a "banjo" rolling sound using this pattern to cross three adjacent strings, at speeds way over 300: down, down, up, down, down, up, down, up. Over and over.


NOW!!!!

[MarkRhodes]

Just to say quickly - it seems to me one big reasons the Gypsy players pick so mind-bogglingly fast is that there's never any doubt about up or downstroke. 50 Gypsy players would pick most passages pretty-much the same. It comes from tenor banjo plectrum technique, I believe, and is highly codified. So muscle memory is working from the get-go, and these principles let one move the pick (consider the hand position, too) extremely fast - it does seem weird at first.

I think you're right about this. They can play incredibly fast and clean and the way they play seems to be, as you say, "highly codified." I don't know how easy it is for someone to learn that who has spent years playing another way, though...

[Kojo27]

I think you're right about this. They can play incredibly fast and clean and the way they play seems to be, as you say, "highly codified." I don't know how easy it is for someone to learn that who has spent years playing another way, though...

Actually, I think it isn't as difficult as it may seem. It's *hard* - yes, but the players whose testimonies I've read, who "switched over" -- Horowitz being one -- have spoken of getting going, somewhat, in a few months. These guys played already. They recommend switching, for good, if you're gonna switch. Horowitz was a bebop player, and despite the "staccato-ness" of this way of picking, he saw the benefits as being worth it, and vowed to make it work. And he did. Bireli Lagrene's right-hand technique is very noticeably NOT the Gypsy "codified" technique of his youth, but it did come from this. In his shows, he switches back and forth, but then he's Bireli Lagrene.

I may get flack from this, but Gypsy jazz is oftentimes highly lick-based, and this facilitates the blistering, seemingly endless flurries of single notes, too.

I think another thing that makes this style seem so hard ("This will take a lifetime!") is the sheer bursting speed. But keep in mind, the speed flurries (notice Django or Bireli or Stepan) come mainly from the ascending arpeggios, which are largely just big sweeps. The diminished triplet arpeggios also are a "standout" of this style, and make it sound beyond a normal human being, but those are perhaps the easiest to become comfortable with, and normally depend upon open strings.

There are some Homespun videos by P. Mehling, and, uhh - I can't recommend those. Dennis Chang has the best stuff, and Horowitz. Much to be learned from YouTube; Tim Robinson's channel is super. Being a child of the 70s, pre-video, I learn better from books. The "mirror image" thing of videos just blows my mind I think. Doesn't work well for me. Thankfully there are some HUGE books out there on manouche, and tons of videos. My problem was, when I tried to pick this way, I always sounded like Gypsy jazz. I suppose doing what Bireli and Horowitz did comes way down the road.

[Reg]

Kojo77's point about..."Never any doubt about what one is doing"... is what I've tried to preach since I joined this Forum.

It's not just with picking, take the concept and apply to all aspects of your playing. When you have a base reference for any aspect of playing.... even if it's not the best system or approach, you'll at least be able to develop and move forward.

When you stack bits and pieces of maybes and something like that etc... mix and match what ever comes up or sounds good at the moment... you hit walls.

[MarkRhodes]

I may get flack from this, but Gypsy jazz is oftentimes highly lick-based, and this facilitates the blistering, seemingly endless flurries of single notes, too.

I think that's true. I think it's true of many fast styles. I mean, heck, bebop was lick-based too! A lot of blues is too. (It's not necessarily fast, but because it rewards playing with a "vocal quality," it pays to know a lot of licks. Ellington once said, if you want to play jazz, you can't know too many licks.....

[MarkRhodes]

Kojo77's point about..."Never any doubt about what one is doing"... is what I've tried to preach since I joined this Forum.

It's not just with picking, take the concept and apply to all aspects of your playing. When you have a base reference for any aspect of playing.... even if it's not the best system or approach, you'll at least be able to develop and move forward.

When you stack bits and pieces of maybes and something like that etc... mix and match what ever comes up or sounds good at the moment... you hit walls.

I'm sold, Reg! Please know your "preaching" isn't falling on deaf ears. (At least sometimes....)
I realize now that part of what I internalized as a silly teenager was the idea that "jazzers" were making it up as they go along, that it was all "inspiration."

The other night I was playing for someone and I was doing a blues and I had done something that was okay, didn't really have anything special to come next, but didn't want to end the piece yet, so I told myself instead of noodling, I was to "only play things you know you can play." It changed my thinking and I did fine. I realized I had spent a lot of time being really anxious while playing. (Now, sometimes that can help, and there are Big Deal situations, but this was a casual thing.) It made it easier to "just play sh*t you know you can play." And by "you know you can play" I didn't mean in general, or most days, or on a good day, but Right Now.

That's not magic but it's a different mindset. It helped me. I want to keep that in mind next time.

[Kojo27]

I'm sold, Reg! Please know your "preaching" isn't falling on deaf ears. (At least sometimes....)
I realize now that part of what I internalized as a silly teenager was the idea that "jazzers" were making it up as they go along, that it was all "inspiration."

The other night I was playing for someone and I was doing a blues and I had done something that was okay, didn't really have anything special to come next, but didn't want to end the piece yet, so I told myself instead of noodling, I was to "only play things you know you can play." It changed my thinking and I did fine. I realized I had spent a lot of time being really anxious while playing. (Now, sometimes that can help, and there are Big Deal situations, but this was a casual thing.) It made it easier to "just play sh*t you know you can play." And by "you know you can play" I didn't mean in general, or most days, or on a good day, but Right Now.

That's not magic but it's a different mindset. It helped me. I want to keep that in mind next time.

Wow, this calls my name. Those who may have read some of my 1100+ "nutso" posts might know that my "silly teenager" phase hit around age 50. I still think it's the ideal way to improvise (playing what bubbles up in imagination, and sounds in that "loud speaker" in your head, as Dizzy supposedly remarked.)

But I've finally realized that there are other ways to play, and valid ways at that. It dawned on me that with "licks" -- it isn't the lick, per se that matters, but the *spirit* of the lick. Or I guess it's the "spirit" the player gives to the lick. Just mechanically playing memorized, knee-jerk notes STILL seems not a very worthy thing to shoot for, but then any player worth listening to isn't going to be doing it like this anyway.

Put another way, I've realized that the players I can listen to nonstop, even though they may be relying on licks to a good degree, seem NOT to be doing anything mechanical, or by rote. They put emotion into it - "spirit," or whatever you want to call it. I think Herb Ellis was right when he said the great players (those he liked) sing (or hum, grunt, etc.) as they're playing, and this is a key part of ensuring that whatever you play is connected to your "heart and soul" (Herb) - and won't sound like finger exercises.

BTW: I think much of my "purist" beliefs came from 1) being perfectionistic by nature 2) having read too many Guitar Player and Downbeat interviews, and 3) living in the heart of the Appalachian Mountains, where jazz almost does not exist, where teachers surely don't exist, and 4) from thinking too much (or too little?) Also, being sick as a moose for the past 2.5 years or so, I couldn't really practice (just a bit of noodling, yep) and it all remained cerebral.

KNOCK ON WOOD, I'm waaaaay better now - and have practiced every day for a week - yeeha.

Sincere apologies to anybody here I rubbed the wrong way, or offended. I take all responsibility for the posts, but I really believe things will be different now that I actually have hormones in my body - ha. And, honest, I'm posting a standard soon. : ) Licks and all.... : )

Loren/kj

[MarkRhodes]

Put another way, I've realized that the players I can listen to nonstop, even though they may be relying on licks to a good degree, seem NOT to be doing anything mechanical, or by rote. They put emotion into it - "spirit," or whatever you want to call it. I think Herb Ellis was right when he said the great players (those he liked) sing (or hum, grunt, etc.) as they're playing, and this is a key part of ensuring that whatever you play is connected to your "heart and soul" (Herb) - and won't sound like finger exercises.

I agree. Herb thought that humming / grunting / singing to oneself (-whatever you call it) made the lines come from "you" (-the player) than just from your fingers. I think we recognize this in other areas of life---someone at work might be "going through the motions" or "phoning it in" and what we mean is that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing but not feeling it, just bored and lifeless, and this drags down those who are aware of it.

We also notice this in customer service. Those simple phrases, "How are you?" "May I help you?" and "Thank you," are almost insulting from some mouths because they are clearly not meant, while other people make you feel like they see YOU and that can make your whole day.

When we sing, we're "in" it. That makes all the difference.

[Kojo27]

I agree. Herb thought that humming / grunting / singing to oneself (-whatever you call it) made the lines come from "you" (-the player) than just from your fingers. I think we recognize this in other areas of life---someone at work might be "going through the motions" or "phoning it in" and what we mean is that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing but not feeling it, just bored and lifeless, and this drags down those who are aware of it.

We also notice this in customer service. Those simple phrases, "How are you?" "May I help you?" and "Thank you," are almost insulting from some mouths because they are clearly not meant, while other people make you feel like they see YOU and that can make your whole day.

When we sing, we're "in" it. That makes all the difference.

Yes. And for what it's worth, having spoken of "licks," I've found that, for me anyway, singing through a phrase as I play it during practice, playing very slowly at first, then continuing the singing/playing up to speed, this creates something like another dimension, regarding "putting me in it," as you say. If I've sung a thing, while playing it, fifty times, it becomes completely unlike a phrase I've only just learned to finger. This might be worth trying if you've never done it. I'm sure I didn't invent the process, but I'm glad I started doing it. I think it builds a capacity for playing the thing with emotion.

Speaking of licks played with emotion, dig this:

[goldenwave77]

Johnny Smith's rt. hand thumb---not entirely "orthodox" and Bruce Forman--my new guitar hero

Flipping through this thread, after I read the post on "anchoring vs. not anchoring", and I remember that in the Johnny Smith video footage in that thread, I remembered seeing that his thumb was not the "orthodox"-- "curve it up towards the ceiling position", but that it had a definite relaxed downward hinge to it.

Also, ran across a post of Bruce Forman playing some bop lines. Now I love jazz, and my instrument is the guitar, but let's face it guys (girls)----there are VERY few jazz guitarists who can rip off fast, extended lines like a sax or trumpet can. But Forman's playing just blew me away...I mean you can shut your eyes and almost imagine it coming out of ahorn. Fast, CLEAN (no thwack....thwack from non-coordination of the picking and fretting hand), rhythmic and precise...with swing and groove to it. Too bad he's out on the West Coast mostly---otherwise I'd be going to see him every chance I could.

[vintagelove]

If you put in several thousand hours of practicing playing fast, you could get good at playing with your foot.

In all seriousness, there is one technique that works for EVERYONE. It's called "Practice".




p.s. What trips most people up is 3 note per string combinations because of the alternating direction of the first pick on each string. I tend to economy pick going from low to high, and alternate on the way down. Though I can do and have practiced both. A simple 3 finger per string exercise can go a LONG way at getting over this hump.


p.p.s. If you want to play heads at bebop tempos, you really need to be able to do it all, because some stuff is just not idiomatic to the guitar.

alternate
sweep
economy
I don't do too much hybrid picking but it is something good to have in your bag of tricks.