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Do you guys regularly use your 4th finger for pull offs? A line I'm practicing is laid out in a way that would set up my 4th finger to pull off and I'm not liking it. It's more convenient for the sake of fingering but I tend to get a dead pull off every 4 or 5 times I run through the figure.
Using my 3rd finger gives me a much better sound and is more consistent but it's a little messy in terms of fingering.
Lots of great guitarists purposely cut out the 4th finger from single note playing...Pat Martino prefers this and it's well known that Wes pretty much never used his 4th finger for anything besides chords. I always try to do the same.
Anybody else?
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05-05-2014 02:58 AM
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no
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i always use the strongest available finger, if no awkward gymnastics result.
sometimes it takes a LOT of playing through a passage to really figure out the best possible fingering.
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Yes, I do. Personally I do not think it's so much a matter of strength as it is about minimizing tension. Most people get more tense when the 4th finger has a big task to do and a tense finger can't smoothly pull-off.
I recently transcribed about half of a Billy Bean solo and I'm pretty sure he pulls off using his 4th finger. I can't say for certain, of course, but just based on the speed of the line and what he plays before it, I'm pretty sure he does.
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I usually go by a specific and designated fingering and try not to leave it. Pull offs with the 4th finger are a bit more of a challenge within an FS4 fingering . . . but certainly doable. When transcribing horns, it's pretty much impossible to maintain specific fingerings . . so that theory goes right out the window. As mentioned above by randalljazz, in those cases . . working through it several times will usually guide you. However, even whne worked out to what I might think is best, I sometimes find myself changing fingerings on the fly. Donna Lee comes to mind. If I attempt the head at a tempo beyond my comfort level . . . just to build my tempo up . . I sometimes find myself changing a pre-determined fingering on the fly. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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I can not imagine not using 4th finger. BTW isn't the ring finger the weakest and the least independent one? IMO, pinky is of much more worth than ring. For anything but bends.
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Actually I think the 4th finger is the least independent. I recall reading something that actually says that the 4th finger and ring finger share some connective tissue to a greater extent than any other fingers, with the ring finger being the dominant one among the two of them. I could be wrong though.
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I decided early on in my playing that I didn't want to be one of those guys that only use 3 fingers and put a lot of work into using my 4th finger. Now I use it for everything without a thought. Unless you have some physical impairment it will come with practice.
If you watch John McLaughlin he often bends and vibratos with his pinky by scrunching his fingers close together in situations where most players would use their ring finger.
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With pinky pulloffs I dig in a little and "flick" the string a bit with the pinky. I don't know if that's even a proper technique but it makes the second note louder (as in more even).
Originally Posted by teok
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Some people will tell you that "the fourth finger is baggage".
that may be true, but the classical tradition demands that you develop it. So did William Leavitt. I believe that Johnny Smith had no problem with it. Benson seems to do OK with his pinky. And then there is Johnny Mac, as stated above.
Likewise, shredders and/or jazzers who employ 3NPS.
do jazzers want to be less capable than rockers?
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There's a great exercise for the left hand in Troy Stetina's "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar" that did my pinky much good. None of the notes is picked and this should be done on all strings. (In the book, this is written as sixteenth notes but let's treat each number here as a quarter note and the "/" as a bar line)
2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1 / 3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2 / 4-1-4-1-4-1-4-1 / 3-1-3-1-3-1-3-1 / 3-2-3-2-3-2-3-2 / 4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2 / 4-3-4-3-4-3-4-3 / 4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2 /
The pinky-move that gives me the most trouble now is one Herb Ellis often used: play the third of a chord (on the high E string) with a pinky, slide up a fret, and then back down. For example, if you're playing rhythm changes in Bb, the 3rd is D, at the 10th fret, which he would slide up to Eb then back down to D. There's nothing conceptually difficult about this, but it took me a long time to make that move smoothly, and at brisk tempi I'm apt to rush it if I'm not careful.
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Attachment 12146
Django and his left hand.
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If he could, would have he used it? That is the question.
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I think so... Originally Posted by Vladan
Young Birelli use all 4 fingers...
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I read an interesting study on fourth finger independence. I got thinking about it because on my right hand, I can move my fouth finger independently - being able to do this easily -
I cant do it on my left . I wondered if it was a you either can or you can't situation.
The study looked at a lot of proffessoinal violinists, the majority of which could execute trills between their fourth and third finger.
It concluded that it was down to some bodily link (tendon/muscle? cant remember) that was once universal to humans but is now being faded out through evoloution. As a result a lot of top violinists had it as an advantage to their playing.
I guess the guitarists that are happier using their fourth can probably move their finger independently, and those that cant, acknowledge this and get on with what they have got.
i'll try and find the study, because otherwise I sound like a bloke in a pub.
-urggh cant find the decent arcticle, but if you google flexor digitorum superficialis - there is some stuff on it.Last edited by basinstreet; 05-06-2014 at 05:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by kris
Ah, that clip. I tell them I can't stand Gipsy Jazz, they respond I can't spell Gipsy (Kings)... and so on ...
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there are some ways of line conception where using the first 3 fingers are emphasized, and then there are certain things for which using the pinky and pulling off is crucial. Depends on the sound and vibe you're going for. But using the pinky IMO should be part of basic physical training.
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It's more convenient for the sake of fingering but I tend to get a dead pull off every 4 or 5 times I run through the figure.
So you know precisely what you need to focus on in practice; you're half way there just knowing what deficiency you need to correct/overcome.
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I see a lot of short cuts people seem to want to take in guitar playing.
Use the little finger.
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When I read through the thread, I must admit I didn't even know whether I used my little finger of the left hand. Then I picked up the guitar and yes, absolutely it does what ever the other fingers can do, hammer on, pull off, fret, slide... it was so natural I don't think about it.
I began my guitar studies with classical. That may have had the big influence. But I feel that having that finger is like having a specific effects box as part of the pedal board: if you learn to use it, there are ways it will expand your musical possibilities if your mind is open and you work at it. Why wouldn't you?
Reminds me of my thoughts when I read Wayne Krantz's OS book. So many things I thought I couldn't do but so many possibilities I'd kept myself from.
Hey, truth be told, you know your hands better than anybody. If you can get a stronger phrase by shifting your position and using your stronger fingers, don't let ANYBODY tell you not to. Develop that and make it your own. If you hear a phrase, try out whatever you can imagine would work; there are advantages and disadvantages to any set of choices. What serves your music?
David
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There's a great chapter in Jim Hall's 'Exploring Jazz Guitar' where he discusses alternate fingerings for a given phrase. Each option of left hand finger, note location on string, and right hand attack all have the potential to be powerful artistic choices. There's also a great section in Mick Goodrick's Advancing Guitarist where he puts the microscope on the principles of left hand fingering, shifts, slides, stretches, hand-carries and such. Those two references, along with the Jazz 625 Wes footage that used to be a secret VHS bootleg sum up most of what I know about fingering.
These days, there's so much information available via the internet. It might be illuminating to take a few guitarists whose phrasing you admire and check them out back to back on the Youtubes. Are there any similarities in the fingering choices they're making? That might set you on a path to create your own personal approach. Of course, it's very possible to be inspired by a fellow guitarist artistically while having nothing in common with their physical approach to the instrument. Best wishes!
PK
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I was set on a course of using all four fingers from my very first jazz guitar lesson 35 years ago. All of my chord forms and scale forms were taught using all four fingers, so it is second nature and I don't think about it. Pull-offs, hammer-ons, bends, etc., can be done with any finger (note that when I bend, all of the fingers behind whichever one is doing the bending are involved- I am not doing one finger bends except occasionally with my index finger, and there it is a subtle bend).
Watching a three-finger player like Wes, Peter Bernstein, Jimmy Raney, etc., always looks awkward to me (even though I wouldn't be able to tell with my eyes closed, except maybe Wes, because using three fingers for single note playing clearly doesn't hold any of those guys back). Watching a four finger player like Joe Pass, Ed Bickert or Gene Bertoncini looks logical and smooth. I think that using all four fingers is of tremendous advantage in chord melody playing in particular.Last edited by Cunamara; 05-20-2014 at 10:14 PM.
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Yes I recently discovered the goodness of the "mostly-three fingers" approach. Comming from an "academic" strict 4 fingers technique for years, I think it is a bit difficult at the beggining but definitivley doable.
And I'm finding that, in the process, the fingerboard is unveiling itself to me in a different way . I find as well that the sound is better, and playing swinging eight notes is more natural too.
C.
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I use intensively the pinky in my technique and it might have to do with my way of playing often over 5 frets span in a given position. Even if I would like to, I unfortunately can't use the thumb over because of a stupidly badly healed fracture on my left thumb.
I don't think there is a single approach to guitar technique when it comes to jazz or any style.
We often see these threads popping about, should we or not use the thumb, 3 or 4 fingers, angle and height or position of the guitar, thickness and angle of the pick, to Benson pick or not and so on.
Most of the greats have their own unique technique that often goes against what is academically taught and there is probably a reason for that. In my book a technique is something you spontaneously do and if it feels comfortable and doesn't limit your expression why changing it ?
I guess it is in our nature to always try to improve and find the ultimate recipe; even better if it is instant: that is why snake oil is always on sales...
What works for one doesn't mean it will for another musician.
I see it this way : there are 2 types of musicians, the good ones and the bad ones.
The good ones will be no matter what technique they use because they are good...
For the bad ones however it is "obviously" because they don't have the "right" technique
Last edited by vinlander; 09-01-2014 at 08:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Could you say a bit more about this? Originally Posted by pez_espada
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