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  1. #1

    3rd Tuning for jazz guitar - Really???

    I just stumbled upon a website suggesting the possibility of 3rd tuning for an approach to jazz guitar.

    Has anyone any experience with 3rd tuning? Per the writer it's ideal for 7 and 8 string guitars, and ideal for jazz guitar...not folk or classical.

    For a 6 string the guitar is tuned as follows: 6th low E; 5th Ab; 4th C; 3rd E; 2nd Ab; 1st C

    One advantage, per the writer: "Close position chords become relatively easy to play. Spread voiced chords contain all chord notes. For example, a C7b9 is not substituted by a Db diminished seventh chord. Chord forms (fingerings) become standard regardless of the octave or set of strings used."

    The author, Ralph Patt, a NY studio musician from the 60's, studied with: "
    Barry Galbraith, Jimmy Raney, Jim Hall and Chuck Wayne and co-authored a book with Wayne in 1965, "The Guitar Appreggio Dictionary". He also studied with George Russell and contributed to "The Lydian Concept of Tonal Organization".

    http://www.ralphpatt.com/Tune.html

    See attached pdf examples...there's many more examples of scales and chords on the website.

    Does tuning a guitar in Major 3rd's present any potential neck or setup issues that you can think of?

    CHORDS1 .pdf

    CHORDS2 .pdf
    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-02-2013 at 04:48 PM.
    John Coltrane has been sort of a god to me. Seems like, he didn't get the inspiration out of other musicians. He had it. - Wes Montgomery

  2. #2
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    I thought Ralph got the idea for this tuning from Joe Cinderella, the great New York session guitarist. I found a little here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=p6p...203rds&f=false

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero View Post
    I thought Ralph got the idea for this tuning from Joe Cinderella, the great New York session guitarist. I found a little here:
    That book may make for a very interesting read indeed.

    Wiki, not that it's a valid source, gives credit to Patt for creating M3 tuning between '63-64

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_thirds_tuning

    And refers to tuning: G#-C-E-G#-C-E, similar to what I posted earlier...I'd really like to learn more about this from someone whose tried it. I couldn't find an address for Mr. Patt.

    I'd be surprised to learn that no one here has explored tuning outside of Spanish (standard) tuning.
    Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-02-2013 at 09:47 PM.
    John Coltrane has been sort of a god to me. Seems like, he didn't get the inspiration out of other musicians. He had it. - Wes Montgomery

  4. #4
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    You know that there have been several 4ths and 3rds threads on this forum, right? Here's a current one:
    Major Thirds Tuning

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster View Post
    You know that there have been several 4ths and 3rds threads on this forum, right? Here's a current one:
    Major Thirds Tuning
    Oh great, thanks for that!
    John Coltrane has been sort of a god to me. Seems like, he didn't get the inspiration out of other musicians. He had it. - Wes Montgomery

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    And refers to tuning: G#-C-E-G#-C-E, similar to what I posted earlier...I'd really like to learn more about this from someone whose tried it. I couldn't find an address for Mr. Patt.
    He passed away about three years ago.
    Brad

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero View Post
    I thought Ralph got the idea for this tuning from Joe Cinderella, the great New York session guitarist. I found a little here:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=p6p...203rds&f=false
    JC's tuning is discussed on Page 182.

    Patt seemed generous in acknowledging debts to others. Is there any evidence or personal knowledge justifying your attribution of the JC influence? (Patt discusses his motivation in the American Luthier article on his guitars, cited in the Wikipedia biography of Patt.)
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    Wiki, not that it's a valid source, gives credit to Patt for creating M3 tuning between '63-64

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_thirds_tuning
    I resemble that remark.

    The Wikipedia article was written by me. Every statement is documented with explicit reference to a reliable source. (Such referencing is a requirement for the article to have "good article" status.)
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  9. #9
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    First of all JC's tuning is quite different and designed for an 8 string but designed around the same basic ideas. I thought it was an interesting read having Johnny Smith talk about it. Secondly, I was referring to what my recollection was being in contact with guys like Joe Beck (Alto tuning), Hugh McCraken, Carmine D' Amico, Vinny Bell, Joe Cinderella et al, growing up in New York and the word on the street. I said "I thought" in my post. Could you possibly provide some recorded examples of Ralph's tuning? I'm looking for Joe's album "Concept". Can't find an upload. I see you posted a link to "New Standard Tuning". Kind of presumptuous calling Robert Fripp's 5ths tuning that. Was that a 'Guitar Craft' name. The article gives the reader the idea that the tuning has a similar position in guitar pedagogy as "Standard Tuning" which it doesn't. The notion that 'WIKI' articles represent nothing but facts is false. It not a guaranteed source of facts. Can you imagine if Van Eps, Johnny Smith, Allan Holdsworth, Stevie Ray Vaughan all named their new tunings "New Standard Tuning". Please, double bassists don't even call it that.............5ths tuning..........they say 5ths are for sissys.................just kiddin' but just sayin'................lol..............wait it says there may be another NST coming out soon.............."the NST 1.2"...........my bad ......I got it now............OMG
    Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 11-04-2013 at 12:48 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero View Post
    First of all JC's tuning is quite different and designed for an 8 string but designed around the same basic ideas. I thought it was an interesting read having Johnny Smith talk about it.

    Secondly, I was referring to what my recollection was being in contact with guys like Joe Beck (Alto tuning), Hugh McCraken, Carmine D' Amico, Vinny Bell, Joe Cinderella et al, growing up in New York and the word on the street. I said "I thought" in my post. Could you possibly provide some recorded examples of Ralph's tuning?

    I'm looking for Joe's album "Concept". Can't find an upload.

    I see you posted a link to "New Standard Tuning". Kind of presumptuous calling Robert Fripp's 5ths tuning that. Was that a 'Guitar Craft' name. The article gives the reader the idea that the tuning has a similar position in guitar pedagogy as "Standard Tuning" which it doesn't. The notion that 'WIKI' articles represent nothing but facts is false. It not a guaranteed source of facts. Can you imagine if Van Eps, Johnny Smith, Allan Holdsworth, Stevie Ray Vaughan all named their new tunings "New Standard Tuning". Please, double bassists don't even call it that.............5ths tuning..........they say 5ths are for sissys.................just kiddin' but just sayin'................lol
    Firstly, thanks for the reference to the Joe Cindarella interview. The book is available from Google.

    Secondly, Patt's site has about six recordings of jazz performances as well as his scores of backing tracks.

    Thirdly, let me try to respond briefly and respectfully.

    (A) A good dictionary lists alternative meanings of "standard", which are worth considering, particularly considering irony. The Wikipedia article and the thread on NST (here) discuss Fripp's suggestion of alternative names, namely, C pentatonic or Guitar Circle/Craft tuning. He has also noted the example of banjo tuning as a predecessor. There have been plenty of previous denunciations of Fripp's initial terminology, NST, here, and I don't think further denunciations advance understanding.

    (B) On Wikipedia, exactly one article in music theory has good-article status, namely the major-thirds tuning. In the music theory project, Good, A-class, and Featured article status certify quality. I agree that most Wikipedia articles are poor.
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  11. #11
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    Thank you. I respect the FACT you understand the frailties of WIKI. Your tolerance for my adversarial style of interpersonal communication is quite refreshing. You have my respect and I am now a fan. Finally, someone who his cool as a cucumber. Bravo!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    Does tuning a guitar in Major 3rd's present any potential neck or setup issues that you can think of?
    Most guitarists using M3 tuning for six-string guitars use the open-note range of either E-C or G#/Ab-E. A persnickety guitarist should pick optimal strings, and a professional might wish to have a luthier examine the set up (I'm guessing). I've had no problems with intonation using my Ovation or Parker, both using gauges optimized to match the tension of the manufacturer's setup. I gave gauges in the other thread, and they are on the talk page of the Wikipedia article.

    With open-notes beyond the E-E range of standard tuning, M3 tuning would have the usual problems of extended range tunings. I assume that a non-Korean 7-string jazz-guitar would have no trouble with an E-E range. To have a high Ab/G#, Ralph Patt hired professional luthiers to put 8-string necks and pickups on his archtop guitars (as described by the ''American Luthier'' article).

    On Youtube, there are videos of Roman Giza busking with a Chapman stick,

    which is tuned in major thirds, if this source be correct:
    http://www.stickist.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=347
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero View Post
    Thank you. I respect the FACT you understand the frailties of WIKI. Your tolerance for my adversarial style of interpersonal communication is quite refreshing. You have my respect and I am now a fan. Finally, someone who his cool as a cucumber. Bravo!
    Thank you very much, but you don't know the half of "the frailties of WIKI"!
    I've been banned from editing the English Wikipedia because I raised questions about a man's behavior towards especially vulnerable boys (over parental objections)---more discussion.
    Kiefer Wolfowitz

  14. #14
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    Unbelievable. We will have to send my nephew Alex (Northampton Saints - England Elite rugby Prop-Star.....last count over 18 stone) over to there office to straighten them out. Sorry about that. LOL

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