The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    let's be clear. his course is a guitar improv course, not a guitar technique course.

    you can see his technique, but he doesn't explain it to you. it's up to you to study it, if that's what you want.

    its not about "how to play the guitar".


    all clear?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Each individual listens, and relates to players, differently. Playing countless unnecessary notes at breakneck tempo's doesn't make a phrase, composition, or player musical. It makes him a note playing technician.

    In the video example above, notice the depth of musicality projected by the young Joey D. What's wrong with that picture? I've never seen a greater example of a young jazz newcomer upstaging a veteran jazz musician.

    Compared to JD's musicality, JM is - "Soul-less."

  4. #28

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    Gonna agree with Richb and 2bornot2bop on this. Although the OP asked for an opinion on an artist's teaching aid and not the artist . . . it seems this thread might have morphed a bit into "let's post an opinion on JM". Cool!! I'll play.

    Firstly, right out of the gate . . . my already poor opinion of JM was further down graded due to the fact that he had sacrilegiously put a hill billy crow bar on an otherwise beautiful Gibson Johnny Smith. (or is it a Super V with a floater??). Then, to make matters even worse, he's effected it out to the point where it no longer even sounds like the quality arch top it is. He could have accomplished that shitty tone with a Fender Jaguar or some other student level guitar.

    Now, with the comedy out of the way . . . I fail to see the musicality in most (not all) of his playing. That disappoints me and causes me to dislike his work. I mentioned once before here on this forum, quite a while ago, that I saw John live at the Capitol Theater in Passaic NJ many moons ago. I left in the middle of his third tune. Bored to death of his continuous self indulgent scale runs up and down the fret board. I didn't pay for a ticket to see someone perform scale runs that should have never left the wood shed. My poor wife who was with me and had to "suffer" through two and a half tunes, said we should have left after the first song. It just wasn't music.

    However, with that being said . . there's no doubt in my mind that if he wanted to, he could swing. Problem is . . . after all of these years of "gymnastics" . . . I don't know if he could muster up the discipline to refrain from playing scale runs at break neck speeds that don't say anything except . . . "look how fast I can play". As always . . it's a matter of personal taste.

  5. #29

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    Many years ago I saw John play as a sideman in concert with Alice Coltrane.
    He was playing an archtop, possibly a 175. I wish I could share a track from that show because it showed a very different side of his abilities. Cecil McBee played bass and I'm not sure (it was long ago) I think Dewey Redman and Billy Higgins.

  6. #30

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    Hey Patrick 2

    The thing is with John is that he's extremely individual
    You can hear its John straight away

    Not that I've transcribed any at all (and I probably couldn't .....ha)
    But when he plays those fast note flurries ..... he's playing pentatonic things innit ?, not scale runs

    Which you'll either dig or not , cos its harmonically idiosyncratic to him

    Personally I love the guy , but I don't (and couldn't even if I wanted) play anything like that

    Vive la difference anyway dude

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Hey Patrick 2

    The thing is with John is that he's extremely individual
    You can hear its John straight away

    Not that I've transcribed any at all (and I probably couldn't .....ha)
    But when he plays those fast note flurries ..... he's playing pentatonic things innit ?, not scale runs

    Which you'll either dig or not , cos its harmonically idiosyncratic to him

    Personally I love the guy , but I don't (and couldn't even if I wanted) play anything like that

    Vive la difference anyway dude
    Individuality is a good thing . . . no, actually, it's a great thing. So to is being immediately identifiable. That usually means one's a stylist. That's what the suits at the labels usually like to invest their money in as being marketable. However, I personally think it's better to be tasty, while being individual and easily recognizable. To me, John is neither of those things more often that he's not.

    Regarding . . "he's playing pentatonic things . . not scale runs". A pentatonic scale . . . is a scale . . "innit"? Excessive use of scale runs need not be purely diatonic to be distasteful, (to me). To my taste, any run which always ascends in sequential incremental intervals, in any scale is distasteful if used excessively. Once in a while it's OK . . . even tasteful. Even pure chromatisizm (sp?) can be tasteful, if not over used. Similarly with arps. Think about how quickly people would poo poo a jazz guitarist if all (or too many) of his improvisional lines were arps played like that. He'd quickly be perceived as uninventive. Just look at what Wes did with arps. He was considered one of the great melodic improvisors ever on jazz guitar. Amost always focused on arps. Would he have been considered the genious he was if he just played sequential arp runs over every chord?

    I've got similar issues with some (much) of Johnny Smith's improvs. Too often, (for my personal taste) he'll launch into a great, tasty and very melodic line . . . with a scale run up to the line. It becomes predictable. I just don't particularly like that. Improv shouldn't be predictable. I dislike it even more, when a player like JM over uses it at 32nd or 64th note speeds which are more often than not out of character with the tune or his other lines within that particular improv. I've seen and heard Jimmy Bruno employ sweep picking lines at speeds that JM could never hope to achieve with his alternate picking approach. Yet, Jimmy's use of that technique isn't obtrusive to me . . because it's not over used.

    Just a matter of personal taste, I guess.
    Last edited by Patrick2; 09-07-2013 at 11:11 AM.

  8. #32

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    Patrick, I've listened to and seen JM in every era from the 70's forward. I understand where you're coming from but I would urge you to give him another listen.

    Have you heard his work from the 90's forward? In other words, starting with "After The Rain"?

    Granted, he plays a lot, lol. He's no minimalist but I think you'll find that there is some considerable depth in his improv.

  9. #33

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    Pat Metheny's thoughts on John:

    "to me, john is one of the most significant figures in the modern history of the guitar. it is usually enough for someone to affect the evolution of their instrument once in their career - john has done it at least three times. first, with the amazing and refreshing conceptual leap that was the record "my goals beyond" where he in one record indicated a way of playing that spawned an entire subgroup of records by guitar players. the second, and probably most important,was the mahavishnu orchestra - along with weather report, the next giant leap in the evolution of jazz ensemble playing since the breakthroughs of ornette coleman's quartet, the john coltrane quartet, and the miles davis quintet of roughly a decade before. and then, shakti, where he became the first western musician to succesfully function in an environment that had attracted but eluded western improvising musicians for decades. he is a giant - one of my favorite musicians and composers ever."

    Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

  10. #34

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    John McLaughlin:
    -Has played with Paco de Lucía and Miles Davis
    -Is highly respected by Jeff Beck, Pat Metheny and Chick Corea
    -Is responsible for giving life to pioneering groups such as The Mahavishnu Orchestra and Shakti
    -Composed and played on the seminal (fusion, call it what you will) track Meeting of the Spirits

    While one may not like/enjoy/relate to his playing, the above would certainly put me off dissing or deriding him.

  11. #35

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    McLaughlin is a monster.

  12. #36

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    Seen Yes many times but unfortunately was too young to see them in their prime - in 72-73 I suppose! I'm seeing them next year in Manchester UK on the 3 albums tour. A bit of a tribute band now I'm afraid, but still playing well, and I will enjoy the nostalgia! You are the only guy I know who saw the original MO and wasn't blown away... Or maybe you were blown away, but blown right out of the door.

    Phil

    Edit.This is the only decent recording of the MO around the time you saw them. He plays like Hendrix with even more heart. Can't believe anyone would walk out on this. I think this is unbelievable music, never heard anything like it, and don't expect to again. It's not playing scales. It's blasting the audience with passion, volume, soul, intensity and heart. To my ears anyway.

    Last edited by Philly112; 09-23-2013 at 11:24 AM.

  13. #37

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    When I heard the first release of Mahavishnu Orchestra, Inner Mounting Flame, especially Dance Of Maya and the title track - all of it, my world was blown. Greatest thing I'd ever heard coming from a guitar at that time. Well there was Hendrix too. Sorry you didn't get it. Amazing, amazing stuff. And what an amazing conceptualist and composer. Wow. Some people just missed it and are proud about it.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    When I heard the first release of Mahavishnu Orchestra, Inner Mounting Flame, especially Dance Of Maya and the title track - all of it, my world was blown. Greatest thing I'd ever heard coming from a guitar at that time. Well there was Hendrix too. Sorry you didn't get it. Amazing, amazing stuff. And what an amazing conceptualist and composer. Wow. Some people just missed it and are proud about it.
    Just a point of fact... There was no title track - I presume you mean Meeting Of The Spirits! Which was great of course!

    Cheers
    Phil

  15. #39

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    Extrapolation is still one of my favorite records.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Please tell me what the guitar was trying to say from 2:00 to 3:15.?.?
    Well, if I had to try to put it in words, something like, "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!"

    It's kind of weird to pick out the first bit of the solo, since it develops over time. I think McLaughlin was trying to extend the emotive possibilities of the instrument and achieve something like the intensity and spirit of what Coltrane was doing later in his career on the guitar. I think the little screams and things are pretty cool, myself.

    My personal preference is for Montgomery's approach to building intensity with the octaves and chord blocks, but I'm not really sure I get how anyone can not at least respect the McLaughlin approach and how he changed the boundaries of what was possible on the instrument.

    That's also just a beautiful song with a really amazing, intense groove, to my ears.

  17. #41

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    The original 1971 studio recording of Meeting Of The Spirits is a major reference point for many musicians, self included. The dissonant, crashing opening chords followed by a criss-crossing tapestry of time sigs and contrasting lines was nothing short of mesmerising.

    However, on that particular YouTube clip, McLauglin is trapped in late 60s/early 70s guitar hero mode, IMHO, jamming out in a protracted "it's great if you're stoned" solo, typical of the era. In stark contrast to the studio version, where each note seems to surge from inside, he's just meandering on the outside.


    As an aside, if you have a manifest dislike for an artist, but keep posting about him, maybe there's some denied, secret admiration or fascination lurking in there somewhere.

  18. #42

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    If anyone likes, or is interested in JM and his early days (up to and incl the Mahavishnu Orch), the book by Walt Kolosky "Power, Passion and Beauty" is a fascinating read. JM relates some cool and funny stories.

  19. #43

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    Has anyone heard Rene's Theme on Larry Coryell's album Spaces? JM is on the whole album but this is the acoustic duo of him and Larry.


  20. #44
    I haven't posted here in years, but nonetheless would like to add my two cents here. John McLaughlin is one of my favorite guitarists along with Bill Frisell, although I can be one of his biggest critics as well. Personally I never really dug his super-fusiony stuff, especially what he's doing now (although I love Mahavishnu), but disagree vehemently with those who say he has no feel, can't swing, etc. Partly this is John's own fault, since most of the time, and what he's famous for, is playing really, really fast.

    Listen to his pre-Mahavishnu stuff however, and you'll hear some of the most beautiful guitar playing ever recorded. Particularly his work on In A Silent Way and his first album Extrapolation, as well as My Goal's Beyond. Sometimes I wonder what music would have been made if his career took the Extrapolation rather than Bitches Brew trajectory; that is, more out there jazz rather than rock-fusion. But in any case, if anyone wants to hear John at his best (imo) listen to In A Silent Way and Extrapolation, and if you can get your hands on the Complete Silent Way Sessions listen to that as well, and now that I remember check out Where Fortune Smiles as well. Sort of wish he'd go back to this style of playing some day, I would love to hear him play with John Surman again.

  21. #45

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    i'll have to check those out.

    I like what he's doing now, but my favorite period was the 90s with the power trio (Joey D. and Dennis Chambers). Those guys really played their asses off.

  22. #46

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    rom 'Miles: The Unauthorised Biography' - chapter 27:

    "So I was trying to record some sh*t, you know, Bitches Brew, and it just ain't happening. 'Cos we had too much heavy black sh*t goin' down, so I said to Teo, hey, we need to mix some dumb-ass white sh*t into this. So I'm thinking, who is the whitest, stiffest, dumbest cat who can do this? So I called John, and I said, hey John you motherf***er, I'm doing a record and I need you to come over and lay down some real white, stiff sh*t, you know what I'm saying? And he says 'sure Miles, I'd be honoured' in that cute British accent. So we get to the studio, and John says, 'what do you want me to do?' So I look him right in the eye, and I say, 'Play the guitar like you only know how to play like some totally incoherent, white, dumb, pointless motherf***er.' And John went kind of quiet for a couple of seconds, but then he started to play. So when he did his white, soulless sh*t and mixed it up with my heavy black sh*t, well man, it all came out just the right consistency of sh*t. You dig what I'm sayin'?"
    I've shown this to several musician friends, hilarious...lol..

    when I was a kid I looked up to him, but back then i didn't have enough experience, as a listener, or player, to know much else. but yes, it does seem like he sort of does the same thing over and over, over different chord progs. The constant alternate picking seems choppy, not flowing, gets tiresome after a while. and not a big fan of his electric guitar sound in the 4th dim. band. Liked his whole thing better when he played the whecter nylon string. Love the other guys in the band though, gary husband, hadrien feraud, etc. the opening of this is what I mean by same licks over and over.. machine gun fire.

    Last edited by bob dullam; 12-28-2013 at 12:42 PM. Reason: add more remarks

  23. #47

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    Hey Bob, welcome to this motley crew of aspiring Jazz guitarists. I know you were one of Mclaughlin's biggest fans at one time. Mahavishnu was one of the most mind boggling Fusion bands in the early '70s.
    Last edited by bobby d; 12-28-2013 at 02:06 PM.

  24. #48

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    I don't think that J.M. was ALL horrible by any means. He developed a style that was of it's time. late 60's. meditation. Sri Chinmoy. Jazz went from being a "party"(ala the rat pack, fun sense of humor), to a very serious heady type of music. The first Mahavishnu album was cool, it was original, and even fun, from there it got to be way too serious. It alienated so many non-musicians. I remember by around 76' or so, jazz was becoming a four-letter word, to most non-musicians. Upto that point, this town that bob d. and I grew up in, had a lot of jazz going on, but we were kids. And there was NO jazz education to speak of, at the time. The seriousness, along with too many long-winded jams in odd-meters, killed it. Playing over peoples heads eventually wears out not only the listeners, but the people who play it. or if you do, it had better be damn good, and extremely musical, or it won't last.
    If you want to be a fusion guitarist these days, you have to be extremely good, maybe think about hooking up with a chick corea, get validated, write some guitar books, do some dvd's, or you might have a hard time financially. We all know this is true. As I get older, I find myself listening to joe pass, Wes M., Tal Farlow, George Benson, Pat Martino, Joe Diorio, etc.. These guys have shown that mastering the basics alone could take some of us a lifetime. And the great thing about standards, is that many people know these tunes, and there is a greater chance the audience will get what you are doing.
    I just spent some time listening to Tosi Abasi. talented kid. 8 string guitar. But it seems as if the attraction is about his technique(sweep picking, hybrid picking, tapping, etc.) than the music itself. no singable melodies, just fast crazy lines. Will this music stand the test of time? is this way of playing worth the massive investment of time, or will it have people wanting to kick you out of bands, and/or clubs? Is that possiblity worth it to you??
    Then there's the 15yr old kid, Andres Varadas, (hope I spelled the name right). solos over Donna lee like he's playing a simple video game, and he writes some fusiony stuff that is really enjoyable, and very musical.
    At my age, I DO NOT want to look out in the audience and have say "I'd like to thank all the tables and chairs for coming out tonight"... lol. In my opinion, if you play riffs like the ones in that video, you may increase that possibility.
    As far as Miles goes...In the interviews I've seen, I've not seen any of the other jazz icons with the attitude that Miles had. Dizzy, O. Peterson, Coltrane, Sammy Davis. One could wonder that if all the other cats had a more welcoming disposition, why didn't Miles?
    But on the other hand, if you are a devout fan of J.M. then get this video. it is expensive, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you are. I find myself listening to fusion(holdsworth, tribal tech, etc..), and grabbing some cool ideas here and there. How do you wanna invest your time/money?

  25. #49

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    I actually do find the Miles comment pretty funny, because it's so obviously Miles needing to be "Miles" in an interview.

    As for Miles himself, there's two things I won't let anybody get away with in a conversation without an arguement...

    1. Denying he was the single most important and influential artist in jazz history.

    2. Those who defend him as a human being...He was a miserable, rascist sonofabitch. It's no big deal...a lot of really dislikeable people made some great music. Let's just remember them for that, the music.

  26. #50

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    Someone asked earlier who Miles would have preferred as his guitarist, and I guess we all know that if not for his untimely demise, Hendrix would have been.... Now I doubt that Hendrix could have sounded very "Jazz" without years of re-orienting, but it could have been a very interesting "experiment", probably more interesting to me personally than what JM brought to Miles' table.... Oh, and the other question was which guitarist Coltrane would have employed. Surely everyone one this board knows that Wes was asked, even begged, but Wes turned Coltrane down. Again, we can only imagine what that could have sounded like!

    And yeah, just wanted to add that the faux Miles quote was one of the funniest things I've read on this forum! We all like to think we know what it was like to be Miles, just because we've read a bio or 2, but hiring JM to add some stiff white sh*t to the loose black sh*t was probably quite close to the mark! After all, didn't he say, straight faced, to Liebman once that folks " just wanna see your fingers move fast!" ?