View Poll Results: What is the max speed at which you can play 16th notes *cleanly* ?
- Voters
- 318. You may not vote on this poll
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less than 80 bpm
44 13.84% -
80-100 bpm
37 11.64% -
100-120 bpm
63 19.81% -
120-140 bpm
84 26.42% -
140-160 bpm
34 10.69% -
160-180 bpm
25 7.86% -
more than 180 bpm
31 9.75%
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This thread is purely for informative purposes, I got the idea last night when I was doing some technical practice. I was wondering where I stood in the strictly technical department, compared to my fellow jazz guitarists. This should be interesting for some of us !
Last edited by Nabil B; 04-17-2013 at 07:31 AM.
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04-17-2013 07:26 AM
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Why is there such an emphasis on speed as a metric of musicality? I never really understood it.
Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 04-17-2013 at 08:10 AM.
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I knew someone would say something like that, that's why I made the precision that "this thread is purely for informative purposes", not for bragging (the poll is anonymous anyway). If you're not interested in that subject then you're free to read other threads.
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I was planning to post the same poll.
Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Are the 16ths improvised phrases or a studied finger exercise?
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A finger exercise, I'm talking about the purely technical aspect. Originally Posted by Dirk
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Could you post a simple exercise to play, so we are all playing the same patterns. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Guy
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Slurs, hammer-ons and pull offs count? I play thumb (right hand) and most of the 16th notes come from the left hand. That would slow me down on the repeated unison note department, but a hammer-on trill would be pretty fast.
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Let's say, playing a D major scale up an down using that pattern and alternate picking : https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Ea0KtAU5qygQCg (root on the A string) Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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i see your point, but there are many tunes that don't sound "right" at lower speeds (inner urge, be-bop, four brothers, airegin, move, budo, lots of horace silver tunes...), so not as an end in itself, but a necessary tool for expression. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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I've noticed that if I can't play in the tempo of a tune I can't recognize what notes are playing in that tune. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
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If you want to play modern jazz with other modern jazz musicians, you need speed. It's just a technical necessity of the craft.
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You're not getting a lot of responses because most of us measure speed with eighth notes, and we're still doing the math
Seriously though, I've never measured my speed...I will though, today. I imagine I will be disapointed.
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I've never measured my speed either, or not like that. On TUNES is the way I measure my speed. And Jeff's right. 8th notes are the measuring stick for jazz. That's where the groove lives. If you can GROOVE, or swing, 8th notes at 300 you doing pretty good.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You're not getting a lot of responses because most of us measure speed with eighth notes, and we're still doing the math
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
Playing 8th notes at 300bpm is the same speed as playing 16th notes at 150bpm.
Guy
Formula to get from 8th notes to 16th notes:
bpm divided by 2
Last edited by GuyBoden; 04-18-2013 at 04:56 AM. Reason: bpm divided by 2
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Since a lot of metronomes don't go past the 200~ bpm mark I find it more convenient to practice using 16th notes. I don't know if there really is an added benefit to going from playing 16th notes at 100 bpm to playing 8th notes at 200 bpm, from a jazz perspective. The brain and physical activity should be the same, but maybe I'm missing something ?
And of course, being able to play an exercise at a given tempo and being able to improvise melodically interesting lines at the same given tempo are two very different things.
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Well yeah, duh. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
But playing 8th notes in feel and vibe and execution is MUCH different than playing 16th notes.
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Kind of reminds me of a perhaps apocryphal story about a woman looking for a job who advertised as follows:
''Lady seeks secretarial work. Can type "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog" at 160 wpm. Willing to learn other phrases."
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Yeah I was just going to say who cares how fast you can play a scale up and down. You most likely can't improvise freely at that speed or even play a complex arranged piece of music at that speed. Originally Posted by Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I agree, but top players can do both, when I listen to George Benson, I hear his great musical lines, great feel, vibe and execution, and also his fast 16th notes add a burst of musical excitement.
Guy
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Picking every note, I could get to about 152 on the D major scale exercise, faster if I was noodling some "comfort zone" lines and licks (I don't ever practice scales, so that's probably why)
It's also interesting (to me at least) that I cannot scat without slurring any faster than that either...what is it, about not being able to play what you can't hear...or maybe, speak?
I definitely could get faster if I played legato, but the jazz purists don't like that, right?
BTW, I found this quite difficult with a three on a string pattern...I really wanted to throw everything into triplets...when I noodled some actual lines with chromatics and string skips I was able to play much more comfortably faster...which, while I know was not the OP's point, is something to note...technical speed vs. practical speed...
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But your missing the point, the technical challenge is to play something musical at a given speed. Your videos only prove my point. I never stated that speed was useless. I said merely playing a scale up and down at a fast speed is useless. Your videos only support my point. A more useful poll & technical challenge for yourself is "How fast can you play melodic 16th note lines over rhythm changes?" or whatever tune you want. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
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I hate to say duh again, but I can also do both. But in JAZZ the metric pulse is 8th notes. I can do bursts of a measure or two or three 16th notes kind of cleanly at 300. More probably. As I said, I have never measured it. But in JAZZ I don't think that's very relevant. The pulse is what is relevant. And playing exercises with no musical reference or consideration I THINK is a dead end and somewhat pointless. It's all about the music. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
And to the other poster, I did read the original post. MY post stated that *I* have never measured MY playing that way. I do it against songs. THAT'S where I feel the musical relevance comes in.
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Guy works his way up to 16th notes at 600 bpm (at 5:22), playing "Flight of the Bumblebee". Owned!
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Okay, am I a dunce here? If were measuring 16ths at a tempo, the click is quarter notes, right? Four notes per click?
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That's what I'm trying to say in my post #10: Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You're able to hear or sing it in the tempo you can play it.I've noticed that if I can't play in the tempo of a tune I can't recognize what notes are playing in that tune.
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