The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: What is the max speed at which you can play 16th notes *cleanly* ?

Voters
318. You may not vote on this poll
  • less than 80 bpm

    44 13.84%
  • 80-100 bpm

    37 11.64%
  • 100-120 bpm

    63 19.81%
  • 120-140 bpm

    84 26.42%
  • 140-160 bpm

    34 10.69%
  • 160-180 bpm

    25 7.86%
  • more than 180 bpm

    31 9.75%
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  1. #276

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    An interesting take from a guy I've never heard about until now.


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  3. #277

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    Not going into artistic aspect, it is not overly fast tempo, above version, is it? Well under 200, I'd say?

  4. #278

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    The link looks like about 180 to 185 to me....

    That is about the fastest I ever got a clean Flight of the Bumble Bee off.

    Wold record is like 320!!!

    I used to challenge myself and try to see what the fastest tempo I could get off some 64th notes was.

  5. #279

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    I can play 2 or maybe even 3 consecutive eighth notes right in the pocket at 300. :-)

  6. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Not going into artistic aspect, it is not overly fast tempo, above version, is it? Well under 200, I'd say?
    This version is for an online Guitar school where they encourage you to transcribe by ear before looking at the written transcription. Yes it is definitely slower. What gets me is the double stops that he throws in. I'm told that he plays this very fast live. Maybe Bireli might be one of the few players who play this head at tempo with double stops included.

    Happy New Year to all!

  7. #281

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    I can play that tempo in my sleep also.

    OTOH, I can't play anywhere near it when I'm awake.

    But, as speed issues go, for me, a lot of it is knowing what notes I want to play.

    If I have to read something, I can almost always get it up to speed with practice. But, that doesn't mean I can improvise at that tempo. I'm much happier (and play better) at moderate tempi.

    The speed is seductive, but I don't find myself craving speed when I'm in the mood to listen to jazz.

    Two of my all time favorites are Jim Hall and Paul Desmond, who weren't known for playing a lot of notes. Stan Getz played beautifully without playing many notes. Hank Mobley and Stanley Turrentine come to mind.

  8. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I can play that tempo in my sleep also.

    OTOH, I can't play anywhere near it when I'm awake.

    But, as speed issues go, for me, a lot of it is knowing what notes I want to play.

    If I have to read something, I can almost always get it up to speed with practice. But, that doesn't mean I can improvise at that tempo. I'm much happier (and play better) at moderate tempi.

    The speed is seductive, but I don't find myself craving speed when I'm in the mood to listen to jazz.

    Two of my all time favorites are Jim Hall and Paul Desmond, who weren't known for playing a lot of notes. Stan Getz played beautifully without playing many notes. Hank Mobley and Stanley Turrentine come to mind.
    Oh yeah, it does get tougher when I have to play it while I'm awake...

    Guys like Getz, Hall, Mobley and Mr. T could play fast tempos, too. They were just such melodic players/geniuses that you don't even notice how fast they're playing.

    Desmond seemed to stay away from fast tempos.

    Bireli leaves out/changes a few notes in DL.

  9. #283

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    when practicing scales, i mostly play 8th notes with the metronome on 2 and 4, up to around 170, so i guess that is 170 for sixteenth notes. Hoverer, if trying to play actual music picking every note my musical limit would be 150 at best, and still a compromise. Speed has always been difficult for me, and never a priority cause i find other aspects of technique equally challenging, more useful, and more fun to work on. I see some players here, amazing, specially with the benson technique that i struggle with

  10. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
    I believe Horn players have a supreme advantage over stringed players when it comes to fingering notes. This is especially so with guitar players.

    Phil actually makes Bireli sound "slow" but the truth is, very few of us can play this melody as well as Bireli plays it here.



    IMO - Horn Players don't have a supreme advantage over Guitarists...they are just 'better' and there were very high standards set. There may be a few advantages etc. with wider intervals and we have advantages with percussive attack etc.

    Listen to a Concert Violinist and most Guitarists can't play that either and the Violin is NOT easier than Guitar...no frets...vibrato is at a weird Angle on Violin...uses a freaking Bow...pick up a Violin and it's harder than Guitar.

    Violin and Sax have more organized systematic approaches and higher accepted ' Norms' compared to Plectrum Guitar which is far less established.

    So my point is ...it's a little early for Guitar especially Plectrum Guitar...that's most of it right there.


    Every Instrument has it's advantages and disadvantages of course.

    To my ears that super fast Tempo sounds like a Cartoon.
    Now if it was played at a reasonable Tempo where you can hear the Groove and THEN they hit some double-time licks- that might sound a lot better.

    I think that it will be much better as I have said to play at a normal tempo and practice hitting some double time or quadruple time stuff...triplets , septuplets .

    I'm a speed abuser but not crazy tempos...

    Birelli sounds great playing these Runs with beautiful touch - though ..tremendous Musical chops -even some Legato using Pick Control .
    Double and Quadruple Time - not a silly fast Tempo.

    I have a trick for playing as well as Bireli LaGrene- just play a Video of him when he was 12 , maybe 13 or 14 compare yourself to Bireli when he was 13 Not how he plays now.

    I mean I can play some things faster and stay in the Groove but playing BETTER is a different thing-remember that I spent decades catching up to the Fusion Players of the 70s...I am adding a lot more* Groove than they had but speed is not really a marketable skill this late in the game the way it was in the 70s and 80s...
    *Only more than the Fusion Guys -NOT more than Benson -the Guitar Groove King ...lol.
    And Bireli is ridiculous- World Class at so many different Styles ...
    Probably Banjo too if he cared.

    And Bireli -just sitting in a room - he can probably play much faster than in Public.

    There's a Video I once posted of Benson where he plays in 6th Gear not fourth or fifth ...it's like a sheets of sound thing...he is not playing at full speed mostly and his 'time' of couse is often imitated never duplicated - Farrel is close though and he can probably play stupid fast at will- but doesn't ....



    "If you can't feel the Groove - don't play the Tune."
    Robert K. Scorpio 2017
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-16-2018 at 12:18 PM.

  11. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    IMO - Horn Players don't have a supreme advantage over Guitarists...they are just 'better' and there were very high standards set. There may be a few advantages etc. with wider intervals and we have advantages with percussive attack etc.

    Listen to a Concert Violinist and most Guitarists can't play that either and the Violin is NOT easier than Guitar...no frets...vibrato is at a weird Angle...

    So my point is ...it's a little early for Guitar especially Plectrum Guitar...that's most of it right there.

    Every Instrument has it's advantages and disadvantages of course.

    To my ears that super fast Tempo sounds like a Cartoon.
    Now if it was played at a reasonable Tempo where you can hear the Groove and THEN they hit some double-time licks- that might sound a lot better.
    Well, I don't think that blowing into an instrument has got advantages.
    Hear that mud !

    On saxophone, every note has to be created, on a guitar everything is quite made.

  12. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by West LA Jazz
    I believe Horn players have a supreme advantage over stringed players when it comes to fingering notes. This is especially so with guitar players.

    Phil actually makes Bireli sound "slow" but the truth is, very few of us can play this melody as well as Bireli plays it here.

    Hum, no...
    Listen to that and tell us which instrument is clearly and cleanly heard, you would be surprised !
    OK, all of them are phenomenons.

  13. #287

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    This thread is all over the place, which is great. I agree with Reg that the fires are illuminating...


    The whole BPM thing is a bit of a mess for gauging playing speed, because it makes these assumptions:


    - the quarter note is the basis for the beat of BPM (std. assumption)
    - the time signature has "4" in the denominator (std. assumption?)
    - one is playing continuously (inferred assumption)
    - one is picking every note (sometimes inferred)
    - one is typically interested in straight eights BPM speed (maybe 16ths sometimes)


    All this is confounding and requires that the BPM be converted to notes per second to get a straight even comparison:


    Notes per second = (BPM) / (60 seconds) x (1 if measuring quarter notes, 2 for eight notes, 4 for 16ths, etc...)


    For 16ths asked in the poll...


    less than 80 bpm = less than 5.3 notes per second (n/s)
    80-100 bpm = 5.3 to 6.7 n/s
    100-120 bpm = 6.7 to 8 n/s
    120-140 bpm = 8 to 9.4 n/s
    140-160 bpm = 9.4 to 10.6 n/s
    160-180 bpm = 10.6 to 12 n/s
    more than 180 bpm = more than 12 n/s


    Likewise, to convert from n/s to BPM...


    BPM = (n/s) / (1 if measuring quarter notes, 2 for eight notes, 4 for 16ths, etc...) x (60 seconds)


    So for 16th notes played at 16 notes per second...!!! 16 / 4 X 60 = 240 BPM


    Notes per second is invariant with respect to the particular time signature and choice of measured note duration basis.


    Furthermore, an individual guitarist actually has multiple "top speeds" of playing...


    - something they have played many times (physical technical speed)
    - something they are improvising (mental musical speed)


    ... and these are meaningless without some notion of quality control, e.g., performance level quality vs speed testing.


    The real dead honest concern is not how fast one plays, but how fast one hears. As soon as your playing speed exceeds your grasp hearing it, you have forgone quality control. This goes back to discussion of needing to be able to play well faster than you need to - this is just the other side of the coin about needing to be able to hear faster than you play... in order to allow one some "head room" while playing as well as ensuring quality.


    Most rock and blues guitarists are able to play fast because they are playing a finger board pattern as if it is a little drum kit - each note in the pattern is "struck" in the same way that a drummer "strikes" his drum heads and cymbals... he knows where they are (!) because they don't move, so all he has to really do is phrasing/timing - the melodic content is "built-in" to the pattern.


    The jazz player plays the changes - as if the "drum kit" layout were a moving target being re-arranged with the harmony of the progression changes. It is not surprising to me that the more deliberate jazz approach is not so blindly ballistic, but scopes each musical target.


    Even more to the point, soloing is generally not a steady stream of notes but a phrased thing with pauses, changes in note duration, crafted rhythms to support melody, etc. The real measure of speed is subsumed by how good it sounds during improvisation where mental musical speed is the basis for quality of physical technical speed.

  14. #288

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    Never thought about how fast I play guitar, however, I also play Mandolin an
    can easily do 250 BPM all day tremolo picking!

  15. #289

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    I wonder how honestly folks here would respond to a poll that asks how fast you can actually improvise? Say solid stream 8th notes against a Jazz Blues in F.... ? My bet is that it'd be a fair bit slower than piano and horn players. My guess is that an average for guitar players might be around 220 bpm, and maybe up near 300 bpm for horns and piano. What'd be your guess?

  16. #290

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I wonder how honestly folks here would respond to a poll that asks how fast you can actually improvise? Say solid stream 8th notes against a Jazz Blues in F.... ? My bet is that it'd be a fair bit slower than piano and horn players. My guess is that an average for guitar players might be around 220 bpm, and maybe up near 300 bpm for horns and piano. What'd be your guess?
    I agree.

    I was playing along to Franky V, he just came out with a new "Trading Solos" course on Truefire.

    One of the tunes is Sweet Georgia Brown, a favorite of many on JGF.

    He calls it at 220bpm.

    I tried it initially at 220bpm and stumbled all over.

    Then I figured it out. It wasn't necessarily technique (though you have to have some facility on the guitar to play above 200bpm).

    No, it was my relationship with the beat. I think we've discussed this at one point, but I think we should bring it back...

    When you play fast--think slow. Hearing constant quarter note at 220bpm, for me at least, is quite stressful and un-nerving.

    Let's take 224bpm, because the math works out nice and neat.

    What I do, is I divide 8 into 224bpm and 16 into 224bpm.

    I do this because 224/8 gives me 224 bpm with a click every 2 measures (that's 8 quarter notes). So I would set my metronome at 28bpm--you might need a special metronome for this.

    If I do 224/16, that gives me 224 bpm with a click every 4 measures (that's 16 quarter notes). So I would set my metronome at 14bpm--you REALLY need a special metronome for this!

    Hearing less clicks at faster tempos "de-stresses" the tempo. I find it meditative. Plus, you hear in a more "musical" manner because you are hearing time subdivided into common phrase lengths.

    I spoke about this on my Journal of Performance Ear Training a while back. Lage Lund talks about this concept a lot. And most jazz drummers that I talk to are EXTREMELY familiar with this concept of marking time at uptempos.

  17. #291

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    Eighths at 220. Not at 240. I'm often frustrated by lack of speed.

    During solos, I can prehear the occasional faster passage but I have to be careful because I often miss the time when I try.

    Where other players can build excitement with great note choices at rapid fire tempos, I can't. Can't double time a medium tempo swing tune. Can't think that fast, can't play that fast. Although I can usually get written out passages up to speed for my big band and octet, I don't have much of a repertoire of licks I can play fast. And, I'm not very interested in improvising that way.

    I've posted clips before -- generally trying to build solos with long tones, changes of octave, rhythmic ideas and whatever else doesn't require great speed.

  18. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I wonder how honestly folks here would respond to a poll that asks how fast you can actually improvise? Say solid stream 8th notes against a Jazz Blues in F.... ? My bet is that it'd be a fair bit slower...
    And this is where folks get strange about me with my own attitude about my playing.
    I’m good at playing guitar. I’ve spent the time to do so. If I play something I already know, I can impress...

    I can transcribe upon hearing, and play back things as recorded. I can shred. I can take licks and arps and incorporate them.

    But I tell people I suck because I know that I can’t strictly improvise a musical melodic line off a chord progression in any random key without it sounding like a student in week 2 of practicing scales.

    At this point, I’m best suited for covers, but I hate that. I want to have my own voice.

    The way I interpret my own skills is that I’m a guitar player, not a musician.

    At at least I know what to practice to be where I want to go, but being musical is the hard part to me.

    I grew up self taught thinking that by focusing on technique, then I would not be held back when wanting to execute any musical ideas...whups.

  19. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by child as audience
    And this is where folks get strange about me with my own attitude about my playing.
    I’m good at playing guitar. I’ve spent the time to do so. If I play something I already know, I can impress...

    I can transcribe upon hearing, and play back things as recorded. I can shred. I can take licks and arps and incorporate them.

    But I tell people I suck because I know that I can’t strictly improvise a musical melodic line off a chord progression in any random key without it sounding like a student in week 2 of practicing scales.

    At this point, I’m best suited for covers, but I hate that. I want to have my own voice.

    The way I interpret my own skills is that I’m a guitar player, not a musician.

    At at least I know what to practice to be where I want to go, but being musical is the hard part to me.

    I grew up self taught thinking that by focusing on technique, then I would not be held back when wanting to execute any musical ideas...whups.


    Sounds like you grew up in Rock (like most of us) . I bet you have no problem improvising melodically or otherwise in a Rock, or Modal situation (ie no challenging changes), but yeah, sounding great with freshly minted ideas at tempo through challenging chord changes is where the rubber meets the road for the Jazz player, and it should take a LOT longer to do this as opposed to faking it in a Rock context (relying on shapes, licks etc).

    I just hope that when you say "at least I know what to practice", that you really are on the right path, because if you are like me you may have spent years of drilling scales, arps, devices and licks etc thinking that this is the best preparation for jazz improv. I've long realised this was my biggest mistake, and that every hour practicing making successful melodies against challenging chord changes should always have been at least 50% of my practice instead of 15%. It's the only way to exercise the mind / ear / hand relationship that takes thousands of hours through which one finds one's own true voice. This part is you "singing" through your instrument without any preplanning, just getting in a zone where things come out right because you spent the other 50% of the time taking care of the technical stuff, developing vocabulary, devices etc. This way, as you get more "hand" chops, you are developing ear/mind chops as well and each influences the other. When you think about it, it's obviously how the greats did it...

    Just thought I'd mention this in case you can relate...

  20. #294
    It it sounds like you know exactly where I’m coming from, and where I’m at. We can smell our own.

    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    I just hope that when you say "at least I know what to practice", that you really are on the right path, ...
    For sure It’s a difficult thing to stick to because of the frustration...and I do catch myself leaving the scalloped strat out for a couple days or so, if you know what I mean.

  21. #295

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    Keep it up. I just honk princeplanet has it right. I’d just want to reiterate, you might want to really spend 80% improvising and learning tunes and other peoples solos. I never spent much time doing the latter, but it’s common wisdom. You need to get the sound of the music in your head. If I were you I’d listen to the masters- NOT the guitar players. Listen to how THEY phrase. Figure out how to make the guitar phrase like that. Then MUSIC is in your mind, not other guitar players. I find it’s easier to hear my voice that way. I’m not trying to emulate other guitar players but in grounding my head on the music.

    If you have the technical side down, well done. Move on. Don’t let it go but concentrate on other things. If it’s NOT down then keep it on the board, but the nuts and bolts of what you need to do is all the other stuff.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #296

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Sounds like you grew up in Rock (like most of us) . I bet you have no problem improvising melodically or otherwise in a Rock, or Modal situation (ie no challenging changes), but yeah, sounding great with freshly minted ideas at tempo through challenging chord changes is where the rubber meets the road for the Jazz player, and it should take a LOT longer to do this as opposed to faking it in a Rock context (relying on shapes, licks etc).

    ust thought I'd mention this in case you can relate...
    I can relate very well to that. Very well said.

    When I hear great players who have become great by doing things in the conventional way (theory, copying records, lots of drill) I think that must be the way to do it.

    But, there are exceptions to that rule, to the point where I wonder if there's another kind of path and another kind of goal.

    I'd say the goal is to be able to play with great time-feel. That's the single most important thing. Then, when you've got that, next, it's the ability to make up a compelling melody that fits the chords. So, strum the chords with great time feel and scat-sing. That's your heart. Not your practiced licks, not your muscle memory. Put those lines on the guitar.

    If, at some point, you get bored with the sounds you're using in your singing you must then work on expanding that inner reservoir of sounds.

    You will be faced with a multitude of choices about how to do that.

    Some posts I've seen (not on this board) will list combinations of, say, two triads and a bass note. How many things is that to try? For major triads in the same octave with the same inversion I guess it's 12 x 12 x 12. Then, continue with minor, diminished and augmented triads, different inversions and different octaves.

    Other posts will suggest lots of transcription.

    Another approach is getting lines from books. There are lots of books like that.

    Here's my suggestion: Forget about learning a zillion sounds at once. Instead, focus on exactly one sound at a time. Listen to a player you like, pick a passage that sounds good to you (and that would be an addition to what you can already do) and figure it out. Once you understand the harmony behind the line you like, and you can play the line, figure out how to use it in a different song.

    That's one. Do it for another, and another. Don't forget that time-feel is more important than anything else.

    And, although it's even further off-topic. I'd add one thing more. Find your own tone. The tone that allows you to express your music. Start by imagining the way you feel a guitar "should" sound. Find the equipment and technique that allows you to get that sound. Maybe you start from the sound of a player you like and find out how to get that sound. But, be attentive to what's missing from that sound -- the part that's you -- and keep after it.

    How much theory does this approach require? Short answer: I don't know. I think Andres Varady does it with no theory and Jim Hall did it with a college education in music.

    The result, hopefully, is a sound so individual anybody who knows your playing could recognize it in an instant. And, if you can do that with great time feel, the phone will ring.

  23. #297

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    not very fast at 1/16 notes which to me is 16 beats to a measure a measure being one click on a metronome

  24. #298

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    I really do not how fast I can play. I am not much concerned with things like this but is there a way measure how fast this one is? Thanks.

    DB


  25. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by DB's Jazz Guitar Blog
    I really do not how fast I can play. I am not much concerned with things like this but is there a way measure how fast this one is? Thanks.

    DB

    I make it about 132 bpm (by my metronome) when you were playing 16th notes.

  26. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I make it about 132 bpm (by my metronome) when you were playing 16th notes.
    Thanks Graham. I thought it was a bit faster.

    I think the vid below is faster. It's the fastest version of "Cherokee" I ever recorded but that was 5 years ago. It's faster than "Road Song" but again, I have no idea how fast. It's probably the fastest I can pull off with 16th notes ...

    Playing fast is no big deal by the way. Playing shitty stuff fast anyone can do. Playing meaningful things fast IS a big deal. When the melodic content starts suffering, you are playing too fast. I think you should be able to play the same melodic stuff as on slower tempi.

    DB