The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: What is the max speed at which you can play 16th notes *cleanly* ?

Voters
318. You may not vote on this poll
  • less than 80 bpm

    44 13.84%
  • 80-100 bpm

    37 11.64%
  • 100-120 bpm

    63 19.81%
  • 120-140 bpm

    84 26.42%
  • 140-160 bpm

    34 10.69%
  • 160-180 bpm

    25 7.86%
  • more than 180 bpm

    31 9.75%
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  1. #76

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    There are very few musicians out there than can hang at that tempo and say anything meaningful. Malone is not my favorite player - I find his articulation overly harsh at times, as well - but the people on this site are incredibly dismissive of skill levels that they will likely never achieve.

    One of the best things about being a jazz player is that you can easily measure your accomplishments against all of the other players who operate within the tradition, and decide what you think is important, what fits your aesthetic, etc. When I listen to Malone, I hear a guy who is accomplishing with ease a lot of the things that I still struggle with. I'm impressed by his ability, and I respect the dedication it took for him to acquire it. Malone has talked about feeling the same way about listening to Benson and other players who are in the very upper echelon of the music.

    It's one thing to listen to a player like that and notice that you don't like his articulation compared to someone else. We can all have fun talking on this forum about what we like best, what works, what doesn't. It's another thing to say that he's "unmusical". And it's a whole 'nother thing entirely to be a dick and say you found his performance "funny".

    My guess is that none of the people who dissed Malone on this thread would sound even half as good on that tune.

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  3. #77

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    I also hope people aren't basing any ideas of "this is what Malone sounds like" based on this clip...

  4. #78

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    I agree with ECJ, 1+.
    It's way to easy for someone to be an armchair quarterback and laugh at someones guitar voice. But HE (Malone) is the one playing with the greats that call him for great gigs, if he couldn't cut it they would stop calling, and he plays all the time, so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    Btw, it was Jim Hall that called Malone to fill in for the gigs with Frisell. Bill and Jim, two of the most lyrical players in jazz guitar history.
    I think they may have ears enough to hear a good match.

    .
    Last edited by ASATcat; 05-27-2013 at 04:55 PM.

  5. #79

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    One more slightly off topic thing about that gig. Malone played great. He was fast and very fun to listen to. He received great responce from the crowd at Yoshis in Oakland.
    Slowhand Friz played a couple solo pieces and after each piece the audience was totally silent just like an audience in the middle of a. Classical piece. Dead quiet.
    After he was all done he received enormous applause and cheers.
    Never saw that before at a jazz show, never.

    Also my date and I got to talk to Malone during the break when he came out and just hung around to talk and meet people, just like Victor Wooten. Super nice guy, that's where I got all the info on how he got the gig.
    Last edited by ASATcat; 05-27-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  6. #80

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    I bet they do sound good together...don't get me wrong, I can dig the boppish stuff too, but Russell's not a one trick pony, and IMHO, the bop stuff isn't even his best trick.

    There's a cool clip out there where he gets a chance to play solo on a gig with Diane Reeves, I think. It's really hip, and gives you a chance to hear his approach to harmony...

  7. #81

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    @ecj

    Being the one who said his playing, on that recording, sounded unmusical to me ...

    - This live performance suited me better, than "that recording"
    - It's good to know we agree on articulation. Now we know we only differ in our choice of adjectives, and maybe some manners, or we just don't take it all equally serious.
    - For that matter, as much as I don't like his specific "space invaders attack" line playing sound, when he hits a chord, that's exactly the sound I'd wish I could have.
    Why is that so?
    I don't know, but I can not but think I'd truly enjoy his chordal solo arrengements. As I've got some hints from people, far more knoweledgeable about jazz than I am, he's suposedly really great in those. Hearing ocasional chord in this bee-hive assured me hints were on he spot. Regrettably, this is a 'speed" thread.

    EDIT: ow I see Mr. Beaumont spoke about it too, I ve sent mine before reading his.
    Last edited by Vladan; 05-27-2013 at 05:43 PM.

  8. #82

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    You know speed is a bit like atonality, it's only too fast if it's faster than you can hear. It's only atonal if it's less tonal than you can hear.

  9. #83

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    Bruce Forman is someone that is very comfortable at super fast tempos like 300 and is very musical.

    Uh, Bruce who?? Sad he isn't know better.
    Youtube him, it's worth it =)

  10. #84

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    Sort of offered in contrast to the Bireli "Stella" vid:



    I think Benson does tend to overplay sometimes, but if you just watch this for his feel and ability to 'shift gears' between different subdivisions...Jesus. Benson is just the man, at that stuff. IMO, he's offering the clearest and best example of how to address the instrument physically for jazz guitar. He never sounds stiff or rigid. Everything just sounds free and relaxed.

    That being said, my favorite part of this clip is McCoy Tyner's incredible solo.

  11. #85

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    That Benson clip was great. The difference in the articulation on the fast notes is really something...he's probably my favorite "fast" player...but I also like how he sets up the fast stuff.

    And Tyner...well...the only I didn't like about his solo was I wish it wasn't over so soon.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-28-2013 at 01:04 PM.

  12. #86

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    I think an advantage is that George Benson seems to spent a lot of time singing his guitar lines, he does this a lot on his Guitar Tutor Dvd , this is probably one of the reasons why "it all flows so naturally." as stated by Mr B (Jeff).
    Guy

  13. #87

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    Dont know how fast I am, especially clean. How slow can you play and still maintain interest?

  14. #88

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    Famous Jim Hall quote: "I can't play fast."

    So who cares what your speed is.

  15. #89

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    Surely it requires years of practice to achieve that level and while I do respect the skill/talent, it's not my choice. Embraceable You, Close to you, Satin Doll, Shadow of your Smile ....now you're talkin'!!

  16. #90

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    In my previous life as a drummer, I played in a band with a superfast guitarist, who could reel out an astonishing number of notes per minute...and most of them were wrong! I have always tried to play as few nots as possible as a guitar player, so have no idea what my max speed actually is. However, I can't help but feel that this must be affected to a great deal by choice of guitar, string, setup etc. I can certainly play faster on a Parker Fly, with 8 gauge strings (mostly hammering on/pulling off), than on my hofner jazzbox with a higher action and heavy flats on it...

  17. #91

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    Not to mention Misty, What are you doing the rest of your life, lots of stuff that is not fast. But it sure is classy!!

  18. #92

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    After 38 years of trying to increase my speed, using every picking tricking pulling poking hammering technique in the book, I have to conclude that I am just not a fast player.

    Part of this question should have been how long can you sustain high speed. For instance; I can play a lick or phrase from the Omnibook up to speed in most instances, but to play the entire solo. No. I am racing, going beyond my dependable top end. My technique starts to break up and I stumble.

    One fast run does not a speedster make.

    Having thus appraised my playing as on the slow side, I have to add for the encouragement of other turtles, that this has not prevented me from having a professional career. I might add that I can comp ok, on the fast tunes too, and this is 99% of what I do anyway.

    My present gig is a duet with a sax/flute and other reeds guy. I comp all the time and throw in a lick here and there.

  19. #93

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    If you remove all pretense of any real structure to the music I could possibly hit bursts in the 140-160 range. But, it would be mindless goo. I answered 120-140 because I know I have some control at that speed .......especially the lower end of that speed range, LOL. I can't sustain it for long. Can't imagine I would ever really want to with my personal taste in playing. I love the fast players. I just know I'll never be one of them.

    Speed is so relative. To a beginner, a mediocre player looks incredibly fast. I'm fast enough to get a point across. Speed is important only in that playing fast can sometimes help you with comprehending songs better. I'll sometimes take a backing track of some type and bump the speed up 1 bpm to see how far I can go before I start becoming lost in the arrangement. Not because I really want to play the song faster than it should be......but my thinking is that if I can pull off the notes, in time, at a ridiculous rate of speed then my playing at normal tempo should "feel roomier".

  20. #94

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    An interesting poll, and timely for me. I had been thinking that it was time to step up my game regarding speed. My teacher has had me working on the application of common phrases to different harmonic settings. It's been useful and fun but I want to burn! Oh, that would of course not be at the expense of good taste

  21. #95

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    What a heartening post by guitaroscar. I've been struggling these past few years to play as fast as the greats like Pass, Jimmy Bruno, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel etc. but can never get close. So, I'm a turtle, but can now relax and concentrate on phrasing and emotion rather than being the fastest kid on the block. Like Guitaroscar I have played professionally and comp with ease but have to rely on chord/melody stuff to fill in the quiet bits. And like Guitaroscar I have played recently with sax in a duo in France. Herewith a link to the stuff we have done...

    MrEs165's channel - YouTube

  22. #96

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    Can't think of anything less meaningful than how fast one can play. Speed has it's place, like quick snippets of runs between statements (Joe Pass), but a measure of how fast one can play a technical passage? Benson's vid of "Stella" does nothing for me. What's the point? No feeling involved. Speed for speeds" sake.

  23. #97

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    This thread again...

    I think it's about roles and goals. See, every person you can name that's a jazz great that doesn't play fast is/was great--I mean really great--at something else that made them unique.

    So you either be unique and lead (or be a sideman who's hired because of your specialty--and some unique players can still play fast, too, mind you) or your role becomes what the group needs of YOU. So if the group plays a fast tune...

    I'm guessing most of us are not on our way to be big name jazz players...that's reality. So, if we want to gig, we need to be able to play the music that's being played...which means having some speed in pocket is a damn good skill to have. Nobody says we all have to cleanly pick 8ths at 300bpm...but we need to know how to cover if the situation arises...The Jim Hall with Sonny Rollins clip is a great example IMHO...you can rag on Jim's technique all you want, but that's a good solo.

    I never buy into the "speed has no soul" crap a lot of non-fast playing rock and blues players spew. Soulless playing has no soul, fast or slow.

    As for that Benson clip, we'll agree to disagree...I think Benson's fast runs are a fine meld of showmanship, melodic punctuation, and a guy "feeling it." He's one of the players to me that can almost always make the fast stuff fit.

  24. #98

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    How creative is your improvisation?
    How refreshing is your note choice?
    How much emotion do you put into your performance?
    How clean are you hitting each note?

    Oh, how fast? In a speed contest I will lose at least 50% of the time. I tend to play with more feeling, creativity etc. at slower speeds. The slower the better LOL.

  25. #99

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    Competitions are for horses, not artists.


    (Bela Bartok)


    I second.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban

    Competitions are for horses, not artists.


    (Bela Bartok)


    I second.
    All these speed threads lately - instead of a poll, maybe we need a computer game "Jazz Guitar Hero" with little plastic guitar controllers with painted f-holes on them

    I thinking it might sound kinda like this: