The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: What is the max speed at which you can play 16th notes *cleanly* ?

Voters
318. You may not vote on this poll
  • less than 80 bpm

    44 13.84%
  • 80-100 bpm

    37 11.64%
  • 100-120 bpm

    63 19.81%
  • 120-140 bpm

    84 26.42%
  • 140-160 bpm

    34 10.69%
  • 160-180 bpm

    25 7.86%
  • more than 180 bpm

    31 9.75%
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  1. #26

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    Speed is such a difficult thing. I don´t want to practice technique exclusively, but I´m definitely not satisfied with my speed. I can do a d-major scale up and down in 16ths at 140 tops. I´ve played for many years and do have moments where I think - "will my technique ever improve?"
    Last edited by yaclaus; 04-17-2013 at 04:46 PM.

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  3. #27

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    ditto on all the kvetching about the premise of this thread, I never practice scales, etc., etc......
    .......... and I can do this scale in 16ths at about 135-140. I've never had much speed. Sounds better when I turn on the distortion box to imitate the shredder youtube videos.

  4. #28

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    You need one more voting button: "Does it really matter?"

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Okay, am I a dunce here? If were measuring 16ths at a tempo, the click is quarter notes, right? Four notes per click?
    If your referring to the bumblebee video, he has it clicking on 1 & 3. On the example at 170 you can hear a pitched sound right before he starts which is quarter notes, but the click is definitely on 1 & 3.

  6. #30

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    post your best take on Countdown changes at 300 bpm.

  7. #31

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    that record setter video was really something. it's difficult to comprehend how a human being can play that fast.


    on the other hand, i think that these speed shredders would provide a better example if they turned off all distortion. distortion hides a lot of little imperfections.

    finally, fast is relative. it depends on what you're playing. some things are difficult to play even when played slowly. (arpeggios, wide interval or range leaps, etc). all notes are not created equal.

  8. #32

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    I don't get why some people are saying that speed is not important..
    Although it may not be the most musical thing if used excessively, it's a huge component in (and I will generalize here!) music.
    Hell, Bach wrote some nasty 16th-note stuff that can go at pretty fast tempos. (Violin sonatas?)
    Also, I don't think Bird would have been Bird if he did not have the ability to play at speeds of 320+ with ease.

    Scales might come off as useless to some of you guys, but you have to get the speed somehow. I've talked to countless cats, Adam Rogers for example, who I'm sure all of you can respect his technical facility at least (I personally do. Hate his tone, but his technique is near perfect). Took an hour and a half lesson with him once where I wanted to focus on technique, all we did was work on scale exercises (many of which he came up with, really interesting stuff!) and Bach sonatas.

    Anyways, my continuous 16th notes are kind of stuck at 120 bpm. Really want to get them working at at least 160.
    Playing tunes at fast tempos is different though, I could handle myself pretty well at something at 250-280, although a lot of my lines would consist of even quarter notes . The content is what counts though haha.
    Last edited by jtizzle; 04-18-2013 at 01:14 AM.

  9. #33

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    It's as simple as this - whoever can play the head to Donna Lee in the shortest amount of time wins.


  10. #34

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    I've not the same maximum speed if I play one note, if I play a scale on many strings or if I play with hammer and pull-off. What is the method to measure it ?

    edit: sorry, I've read the thread too fast.
    Last edited by nado64; 04-18-2013 at 04:35 AM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by hodge12
    post your best take on Countdown changes at 300 bpm.
    Yeah, this. Also dug the "quick brown fox" gag Seriously folks, speed is cool for some styles, and nothing wrong with trying to acquire it if that's how you feel you need to express yourself, but c'mon, there is a world of difference between scales at 320 bpm and improvising great lines to Giant Steps at the same same speed! What's that you say? You gotta start by practicing scales fast before you practice improvising fast? You sure? How about practicing to improvise well at a slow speed first, then speed it up? How about another poll: What's harder, improvising well slowly, or playing scales quickly? If improvising at quick tempo is twice as hard as improvising at a slow one, then I'd venture to say that improvising quality lines at a fast tempo is a thousand times harder than playing scales fast. At least....

    And If I'm wrong about that, then I am clearly living on a different planet to everyone else!

  12. #36

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    Here we go again...

    You are 100% right, but why do you feel the need to say that when nobody here said the opposite ? Nobody here suggested that playing scales fast is going to make you a great jazz guitarist, who could be that naive ? Some of you make it sound like the title of the poll was "how good of jazz guitarist are you ?" !

  13. #37

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    You might be right about improvising slowly. But sometimes, the problem isn't improvising. Sometimes the problem is pure technique. I know that to be the case with many people, not only guitarists. It's good to practice something that you know how it sounds in order to produce the best technique possible out of it. It could be Bach or it could be a Charlie Parker transcription, but sometimes you don't even want to worry about making changes, or reading something. Something as mindless as a scale can be great practice and can be made just as musical as Bach or Charlie Parker if played with musical intentions.

  14. #38

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    Guitarists have such a weird relationship to speed. It's so polarizing. Some people are just completely obsessed, like the Flight of the Bumblebee guy. What a colossal waste of practicing time.

    Others are just furious at the suggestion that anyone practice their technique. Like you don't need to ever work on your basic picking skills to be able to play fast licks. Equally weird.

    It would be like someone only caring about whether or not a sax player can play in altissimo, or being furious at the suggestion that any sax player ever practice altissimo or ask questions about it. It's just something we all have to practice. Chill.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecj
    Guitarists have such a weird relationship to speed. It's so polarizing. Some people are just completely obsessed, like the Flight of the Bumblebee guy. What a colossal waste of practicing time.

    Others are just furious at the suggestion that anyone practice their technique. Like you don't need to ever work on your basic picking skills to be able to play fast licks. Equally weird.

    It would be like someone only caring about whether or not a sax player can play in altissimo, or being furious at the suggestion that any sax player ever practice altissimo or ask questions about it. It's just something we all have to practice. Chill.
    One of my teachers used to say "Speed is like money, you only need it when you don't have it"

  16. #40

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    46 years of playing guitar and I've never measured how fast I can play. Of course I've worked on playing fast every now and then, but I've never come up with the technique to be super fast. I remember Shawn Lane saying that his speed was due to his fast nervous system and it was natural for him to be super fast.


    I think one has to practice on speed daily if that's the goal. Still, there's a varied limit for each of us.

  17. #41

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    Generally with jazz... you need technical skills. It's great to be able to practice lines and get them up to faster tempos. But usually when actually playing... a better measurement of speed might be what tempo you can play something with out rehearsing. At what tempo can you read a line without practice.

    Generally with rehearsal... almost any technique can cover 8th notes at 200. That's somewhat the starting point. What you should be able to play... with out rehearsal.

    Two octaves of any 7th chord arpeggios... 8th notes at 200. That's slow, right.

    The next step is to be able to play patterns or written lines which involve position changes, Try 2 octaves and a 5th.
    A on 5th fret 6th string to E on 12th fret 1st string. But play constant 3rds arpeggios... any chord. If you want b5, A to high Eb. Now swing those 8ths...I would guess most guitarist have a little trouble with at 8th notes at 200.

    Now try to read a line at that tempo...

    Anyone still with me... I'm sure there are a few. But my point is if your really worried about being able to play at faster tempos... these are the skills you need to be able to cover.

    Playing at faster tempos is a reflection of your technical skills... not a rehearsed scale.

    But I understand polls are fun so...I can play 16th notes at 150 cleanly and still articulate...My reading breaks down, I can hang but I make mistakes.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Generally with jazz... you need technical skills. It's great to be able to practice lines and get them up to faster tempos. But usually when actually playing... a better measurement of speed might be what tempo you can play something with out rehearsing. At what tempo can you read a line without practice.

    Generally with rehearsal... almost any technique can cover 8th notes at 200. That's somewhat the starting point. What you should be able to play... with out rehearsal.

    Two octaves of any 7th chord arpeggios... 8th notes at 200. That's slow, right.

    The next step is to be able to play patterns or written lines which involve position changes, Try 2 octaves and a 5th.
    A on 5th fret 6th string to E on 12th fret 1st string. But play constant 3rds arpeggios... any chord. If you want b5, A to high Eb. Now swing those 8ths...I would guess most guitarist have a little trouble with at 8th notes at 200.

    Now try to read a line at that tempo...

    Anyone still with me... I'm sure there are a few. But my point is if your really worried about being able to play at faster tempos... these are the skills you need to be able to cover.

    Playing at faster tempos is a reflection of your technical skills... not a rehearsed scale.

    But I understand polls are fun so...I can play 16th notes at 150 cleanly and still articulate...My reading breaks down, I can hang but I make mistakes.
    You make it sound like you need to be able to read anything in 8ths at 200bpm. I missed that memo, and so did, I suspect, many of the greats, like CC, Wes, Django, GB etc. I like some of your posts Reg, but sometimes it seems you assume we all want to learn how to play like you, and that we should therefore learn everything the way you have learned, and conceive of everything the way you conceive things. Sure, we all may be a little guilty of this without realising, but while most on here will suggest general advice, you almost insist on a very specific methodology. While this is totally appropriate for your private students, I do wonder if you manage to confuse and/or intimidate many novices on this wide forum who may read your posts as the "final word" on Jazz guitar.....

  19. #43

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    context is important, Reg is giving pro advice, not advice for the hobbyist. it seems clear enough to me.

  20. #44

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    Yes, Reg's goals are worth achieving for starters. Measuring speed with the scale is only so everyone will be measured from the same exercise. Playing something where string skipping is involved or changing neck position would surely slow down most of us. I ended up playing the D scale in 16th notes at 132 bpm yesterday. Frickin' metronome!

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Okay, am I a dunce here? If were measuring 16ths at a tempo, the click is quarter notes, right? Four notes per click?
    You've got it right.

  22. #46

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    OK... I do assume too much, but generally I push this way because almost everyone else pushes the other direction. You know, play by ear, don't worry about understanding what's going on, practice slow and get it right. That's what the masters did... that's all BS. (personal opinion).

    I'm definitely not a final word on anything except for myself, but I don't advise on what I haven't gone through and what I can't cover.

    I don't pass on advice from the greats unless I've gone through that method of learning of a skill. If I don't understand the method I don't push it.

    That's probably a great question... How should I pass on advice? Babysit school, charge $, get advice from my wife... Hmmm I already get enough of that.

    Would be great if other pros would give advise, give their approaches etc... and how to get there. Oh yea...(send $).

    I'm curious... how do I play? I don't really think about it.

    Anyway...OK you don't need to do anything, Hows your jazz performance skills going, don't worry about it, it just take time, you sound great.

    Reg

  23. #47

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    Since I got into jazz I have never done technical finger exercises so I honestly don't know. Prior to getting into jazz I was one of those shred heads. I could play 16th at 180bpm, but those were scale exercises and I used .09 strings, go figure.
    I quickly got bored with playing exercises which is why I started playing music instead and since then, I have never measured my speed.
    I practice tunes and I push the tempo a little bit, find the spot where I'm just outside my comfort zone technically and practice that tempo. That means the tempo where I can improvise and make good lines without stumbling too much. Where I can play but I have to concentrate.

    I'm not a very chopsy player. That's not out of principle, it's just where I'm at right now. It takes time to get there.

    When playing a tune, I can double time 130-140bpm when I am in top shape. That means when I've been practicing for 3-4 hours + for a week or more.

    But for the most part, I'm not anywhere near that level chops wise. At this point I worry more about the content of my lines. Making a statement that makes sense from the beginning of the line to the end, and following up the line with another one that is a logical next step in the solo. The chops will come in time. Because if you have chops but haven't worked on articulating your lines, getting accents in the right places, it will sound completely cold. And then, the chops are worthless.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    You know, play by ear, don't worry about understanding what's going on, practice slow and get it right. That's what the masters did... that's all BS. (personal opinion).
    Where have you read people on this forum suggesting that you "don't need to understand whats going on"?. As for playing by ear being BS and poopoo-ing the idea of going slow at first before speeding up, I really hope that most on this forum will disagree.

    But I do get your "Devil's Advocate" role on this forum, and rather appreciate it. However in case some impressionable novice may be reading your posts, I would think it pertinent to not set the bar too high too soon (as regards reading and theory etc) as you will probably discourage them.

    If you wanna preach to those who can handle the "truth" as you see it, you should maybe start your own Pro Forum for advanced players. (personal opinion)

  25. #49

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    Well, I like that Reg cuts through the BS...Guitar players love to spout "one liner wisdom." Like the slow to fast thing...part of it's true-- if you can't play it slow and clean you ain't gonna play it fast and clean...but so many folks stop their "sage advice" there, when the truth is you'll never play fast if you don't practice playing fast.

    Guitar players like their zen koans of advice, but the truth is, there's a straightforward way to lean these things...you can either learn them or wait a lifetime for trial and error to teach you.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    You make it sound like you need to be able to read anything in 8ths at 200bpm. I missed that memo, and so did, I suspect, many of the greats, like CC, Wes, Django, GB etc. I like some of your posts Reg, but sometimes it seems you assume we all want to learn how to play like you, and that we should therefore learn everything the way you have learned, and conceive of everything the way you conceive things. Sure, we all may be a little guilty of this without realising, but while most on here will suggest general advice, you almost insist on a very specific methodology. While this is totally appropriate for your private students, I do wonder if you manage to confuse and/or intimidate many novices on this wide forum who may read your posts as the "final word" on Jazz guitar.....
    The thing is we're not in the pre 50's era. Back then, you also barely needed a college degree for any kind of job. Nowadays any job requires you to know how to use all sorts of programs (Word, Excel, etc), skills you did not need about 20 years ago.
    What I mean with this is that the requirements to be desired for any kind of job change. Maybe Wes didn't need to read back in the 60s. And if he didn't, the guys that came before him definitely didn't either. Nowadays you kind of have to be a jack of all trades to be recognized though. By this I mean, not only do you have to be great improvising, you have to be great with chords, and you have to be great with singing. This also applies to styles you play. The more things you can do outside of jazz the better. I met this trombonist one night who told me he had a salsa band going. He probably got hired because he worked on his salsa chops for a bit. There's also the example I throw in a lot with Adam Rogers, who's a great classical player. He can also do some pop stuff, as he got hired as a studio guitarist and has recorded many many albums (which goes back to the sight reading thing). I think now that reading is a hugely important thing that opens up so many doors.

    That being said, I disagree with the fact that it should be a vehicle of measuring technical speed. Sure, you want to improve your reading skills, but it's a fact that sight reading will never be as fast as your rehearsed speed (as Reg said). Not only that, you won't be able to sight read passages unless you are technically familiar with certain passages. For example, if you're not familiar with string skipping, there's no way in hell you'll be able to sight read a line that uses that. Measuring sight reading should be separate from technical speed, I believe.

    Anyways, my sight reading skill is probably the slowest of anyone here, haha.