The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yes, almost. It slices through the string IRRC. I was looking at Sheryl Bailey videos and she has more of a 45 degree angle though.

    BTW this friend is also an accomplished GJ player. Show off.
    Well, I currently use a black Dunlop Jazz III, and that one is clearly more forgiving at steep angles than picks with a rounder tip. One thing I particularly dislike when using steep angles is the scratchy sound certain picks creates on the lower wound strings. I also do like the snappiness of the tone when using a more shallow angle, but it takes a slightly different movement of the right hand. To each his own
    Last edited by MatsP; 06-01-2015 at 08:13 PM.

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  3. #202

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    I hold the pick (Dunlop II) so that it goes through the strings at an angle. I did this years ago to try and get a rounder, fuller tone. I figured it out by comparing it to my classical guitar technique, where the nails pass through the string almost diagonally. If you twist your hand and pluck the classical guitar so that the nails pass through 'perpendicular' to the strings, it sounds thin and unpleasant by comparison. I assume the reason that the 'angled' attack sounds better is because the nail profile is presented to the string more gradually, i.e. it sort of slides through the string with a 'longer/rounder' profile. The perpendicular attack is like a straight edge which passes through the string instantly, therefore a thinner, harder sound.

    So I decided to apply the same approach with the pick, and it did seem to make a difference. The problem is how to hold the pick so that it is always presented at an angle. Eventually I evolved a slightly odd method of holding the pick between thumb and second finger to achieve the required angle. The first finger is just used to stabilise the pick without really gripping it. I never noticed the angle making a scratchy sound on the lower strings, not even when I used to use roundwounds. It still passes through the string too quickly for that to happen, I think.

    I'm not sure if this method might limit my picking speed a bit (intuitively I think it may do), but I'm not really that interested in speed. I'm more interested in getting a big fat tone like Kenny Burrell for example.

    Other than that, I alternate pick (with some slurs/pull-offs on the left hand) and I rest the base of my wrist very lightly on the strings near the bridge.

    I think everyone just has to figure out their own picking approach, see if it works, if it doesn't change it. Everyone's hands (and goals) are different!

    Some of the videos in my youtube link below probably give an idea of my picking approach.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I hold the pick (Dunlop II) so that it goes through the strings at an angle. I did this years ago to try and get a rounder, fuller tone. I figured it out by comparing it to my classical guitar technique, where the nails pass through the string almost diagonally. If you twist your hand and pluck the classical guitar so that the nails pass through 'perpendicular' to the strings, it sounds thin and unpleasant by comparison. I assume the reason that the 'angled' attack sounds better is because the nail profile is presented to the string more gradually, i.e. it sort of slides through the string with a 'longer/rounder' profile. The perpendicular attack is like a straight edge which passes through the string instantly, therefore a thinner, harder sound.

    So I decided to apply the same approach with the pick, and it did seem to make a difference. The problem is how to hold the pick so that it is always presented at an angle. Eventually I evolved a slightly odd method of holding the pick between thumb and second finger to achieve the required angle. The first finger is just used to stabilise the pick without really gripping it. I never noticed the angle making a scratchy sound on the lower strings, not even when I used to use roundwounds. It still passes through the string too quickly for that to happen, I think.

    I'm not sure if this method might limit my picking speed a bit (intuitively I think it may do), but I'm not really that interested in speed. I'm more interested in getting a big fat tone like Kenny Burrell for example.

    Other than that, I alternate pick (with some slurs/pull-offs on the left hand) and I rest the base of my wrist very lightly on the strings near the bridge.

    I think everyone just has to figure out their own picking approach, see if it works, if it doesn't change it. Everyone's hands (and goals) are different!

    Some of the videos in my youtube link below probably give an idea of my picking approach.
    Thanks for the interesting and exhaustive reply. Well, I can't for my life get rid of the scraping noise an angled pick makes on my (roundwound) lower strings. I don't own a jazz box, I use a solidbody for the record. I suppose there are many factors that contribute to the amount of noise you get, not only the pick angle, but the attack angle and other aspects as well. I do agree that the sound gets "thin" if you use too shallow an angle. There's a sweet spot in my book where the tone is full, but the attack is still decently snappy.

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Thanks for the interesting and exhaustive reply. Well, I can't for my life get rid of the scraping noise an angled pick makes on my (roundwound) lower strings. I don't own a jazz box, I use a solidbody for the record. I suppose there are many factors that contribute to the amount of noise you get, not only the pick angle, but the attack angle and other aspects as well. I do agree that the sound gets "thin" if you use too shallow an angle. There's a sweet spot in my book where the tone is full, but the attack is still decently snappy.
    I use flatwounds now, so that probably reduces any string noise even further. I never saw the point of flatwounds for ages, I was quite happy using roundwounds as they sounded fine. But I tried flatwounds and it was the feel of them as much as anything which I liked. The sound is perhaps a little mellower, though there's not that much in it. Just something about the smooth finish makes fast fingering and chord changes seem easier and slicker on the lower strings.

  6. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Yes, I can imagine that
    I notice that I still flex the thumb when doing alternate picking, when I should really only move the wrist. I know that it isn't strictly prohibited to move the fingers in certain situations (for instance the so called "Scalpel" picking), but I still want to be able to keep a rigid thumb when it's called for....

  7. #206
    I've been experimenting with picking in various ways lately- Benson picking, Gypsy picking, etc. I've settled on 'gypsy picking while allowing upstrokes on string changes'. So, a rotational movement of the wrist- what Pebber Brown refers to as "sarod picking".

    To others who use a rotational picking approach, how much do you bend your wrist? I try to keep mine between flat and a 30 degree angle for single not picking, and increase the angle to perhaps 45-50 degrees for high speed chord work, like in funk (or, in a more jazzy context, la pompe).

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    I've been experimenting with picking in various ways lately- Benson picking, Gypsy picking, etc. I've settled on 'gypsy picking while allowing upstrokes on string changes'. So, a rotational movement of the wrist- what Pebber Brown refers to as "sarod picking".

    To others who use a rotational picking approach, how much do you bend your wrist? I try to keep mine between flat and a 30 degree angle for single not picking, and increase the angle to perhaps 45-50 degrees for high speed chord work, like in funk (or, in a more jazzy context, la pompe).
    So you use rest strokes, kind of. I've actually been there myself, using "gypsy picking while allowing upstrokes on string changes", sort of. It feels quite nice, but due to the angle of the pick against the strings, switching from a higher to lower string during alternate picking can be awkward when the upstroke is on the lower string. I suppose it's important not to use too steep an angle in that case. It does work, but I suppose it's a matter of getting used to it...

    That wasn't an answer to your question, just wanted to let you know that I've tried your approach myself. I might get back to it, who knows

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    So you use rest strokes, kind of. I've actually been there myself, using "gypsy picking while allowing upstrokes on string changes", sort of. It feels quite nice, but due to the angle of the pick against the strings, switching from a higher to lower string during alternate picking can be awkward when the upstroke is on the lower string. I suppose it's important not to use too steep an angle in that case. It does work, but I suppose it's a matter of getting used to it...

    That wasn't an answer to your question, just wanted to let you know that I've tried your approach myself. I might get back to it, who knows
    In my book, there are two fundamental ways to hold the pick: 1) You grip it fairly firmly, a la Herb Ellis, and angle it to make it glide more smoothly over the string, since it's relatively hard to play with the pick at a small angle or parallel to the string when you hold it firmly. 2) You hold the pick loosely, a la Andreas Öberg, and let it move between your thumb and index finger when it hits the string. In this case no angle is really necessary, because there is no resistance when the pick hits the string to talk about.

  10. #209

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    A floating hand gives you a lot more tonal flexibility with your legato playing than anchoring -- because you aren't stuck to the bridge, you can control your dynamics and the warmth of your playing to a much greater extent.

    Anchoring is useful when you're playing really fast passages, or need to control how staccato your notes are.

    Both techniques are useful though -- don't limit yourself to just one.

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshchei
    A floating hand gives you a lot more tonal flexibility with your legato playing than anchoring -- because you aren't stuck to the bridge, you can control your dynamics and the warmth of your playing to a much greater extent.

    Anchoring is useful when you're playing really fast passages, or need to control how staccato your notes are.

    Both techniques are useful though -- don't limit yourself to just one.
    Good advice. One problem I have with a floating hand is that I don't manage to get the same meaty tone as when I anchor it to the bridge for some reason. It isn't as defined, so to say. Hard to explain. But you're right in stating that one shouldn't limit oneself to one technique only.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Good advice. One problem I have with a floating hand is that I don't manage to get the same meaty tone as when I anchor it to the bridge for some reason. It isn't as defined, so to say. Hard to explain. But you're right in stating that one shouldn't limit oneself to one technique only.
    Small question: I've played guitar for a good 40 years, but I've only recently started to care about my technique, posture, etc. to a greater degree. My question to you guys is as follows: Is it normal for the guitar to move a little when playing a scale or so? In my book it's bound to affect the precision if the fretboard and body moves randomly. If it's normal, do you live it, or try to minimize the movement as much as possible? This is not a problem if one uses a floating hand so much, and not when sitting down either. It's mostly when I'm standing that I get annoyed by this behaviour.

  13. #212

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    Hi Mats,

    Could you elaborate as to what "meaty" means? As in forte/fortissimo or ?

    Also, for me at least, the guitar doesn't move. My playing is very loose and relaxed, and so the instrument tends to stay where I've put it. The guitars I play also tend to be very well balanced (Carvin/Kiesel), so I'm not fighting any inherent neck dive or other guitar defect.

    hope this is useful ��

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshchei
    Hi Mats,

    Could you elaborate as to what "meaty" means? As in forte/fortissimo or ?

    Also, for me at least, the guitar doesn't move. My playing is very loose and relaxed, and so the instrument tends to stay where I've put it. The guitars I play also tend to be very well balanced (Carvin/Kiesel), so I'm not fighting any inherent neck dive or other guitar defect.

    hope this is useful ��
    Well, meaty as in the tone having "substance", or "bottom". I feel that the tone gets thinner when I play floating. But that's just me. Your mileage may vary, of course Thanks for the input on the issue of the moving guitar. Glad to hear that you don't have that problem. I suppose I should relax even more, not only in the hand but also in the arm and shoulder.

  15. #214

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    I haven't noticed a substantive change in the fullness of my guitar's tone either way. However, I can make the tone darker by picking closer to the neck, and control the snap of the attack to a much greater extent when floating.

    Definitely try relaxing more, if you're tense. As a rule of thumb, tension means that you're working a lot harder than you need to.

  16. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koshchei
    I haven't noticed a substantive change in the fullness of my guitar's tone either way. However, I can make the tone darker by picking closer to the neck, and control the snap of the attack to a much greater extent when floating.

    Definitely try relaxing more, if you're tense. As a rule of thumb, tension means that you're working a lot harder than you need to.
    Indeed, on being relaxed. Well, I'm aware of the fact that the tone gets darker and more "jazzy" as you go closer to the neck; many jazz guitarists seem to play over or close to the neck pickup. Even with a solidbody you can get a fairly jazzy sound that way

  17. #216

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    I like to practice with the pick almost falling out of my fingers if that's any help.

    Don't think that works for everyone, or all techniques.

  18. #217

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    I know what you mean, Christian. I've heard it advocated here and there. With a stiff pick it surely helps a lot to avoid getting stuck in the strings. I've just now realized what I'm doing wrong by the way, well this is in my book: I don't curl the index finger enough inwards, resulting in unnecessary force to keep the pick between the thumb and the index finger. Currently I let the first knuckle of the index finger *almost* meet the first knuckle of the thumb. It gives me a great stability, and I can focus on the wrist movement instead of caring about whether the fingers move, since they won't move a lot this way anyway. And the pick will sit fairly snugly, while still able to move, with no excessive force needed to keep it in place.

  19. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Indeed, on being relaxed. Well, I'm aware of the fact that the tone gets darker and more "jazzy" as you go closer to the neck; many jazz guitarists seem to play over or close to the neck pickup. Even with a solidbody you can get a fairly jazzy sound that way
    Good point. I think if you pick in this way it minimise the need to roll off the treble on the amp to achieve a warm sound. This can stop the guitar sound from becoming too muddy.

  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Good point. I think if you pick in this way it minimise the need to roll off the treble on the amp to achieve a warm sound. This can stop the guitar sound from becoming too muddy.
    Yep. At least I want some kind of top left.

  21. #220

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    Nice clip of Harry Leahey's playing and his right hand/arm.



  22. #221

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    Harry was a master. Can't express enough how disappointed I am that as a fellow New Jersey guy, I never got to meet or study with him. He died very young. Too many jazz greats died too young.

  23. #222

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    Great memories Patrick. I remember going in 1979 to Gulliver's in Jersey to hear Harry's trio. Also, I remember Harry would be at Gulliver's with Phil Woods. Jimmy Raney had a trio there too. So did Jimmy Ponder. I remember my buddy Gene Valls taped those gigs with a cassette recorder we snuck in. Harry was incredible.
    Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 07-16-2015 at 08:49 AM.

  24. #223

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    Gypsy guitars don't sound their best when the the top is dampened.

  25. #224

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    I've taken the liberty to send an e-mail to the great Andreas Öberg himself regarding his picking technique, etc. Nowadays he uses a floating right hand, not only for gypsy guitar, but for electric guitar as well. He is very close to the strings though, and the hand touches them occasionally as some kind of reference. As far as I understand it, he uses a Dunlop Delrin 500 1.14 mm, and he only lets a small part of the tip show. To each his own. Steve Kaufman lets a lot more of the pick show, but he's a flatpicker on acoustic guitar, so I suppose he has different requirements. Andreas told me he uses a 1.12 mm pick, but they don't exist, as far as I know.

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philco
    Hard to see if Vignola is resting his pinky or not.
    Gambale is resting his pinky. He's anchored all the time (and using a thin pick....interesting)

    The guys who float (Oberg) are still anchoring at the forearm as does Clint strong who actually rests his wrist ABOVE the bridge.

    The rule is that there are no rules.
    That's one of the beauties of the instrument.

    Now let me think......did Wes anchor?
    I've talked to Andreas (Öberg) and he does graze the strings with the base of his thumb occasionally for reference.