The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Yea we're all harmless...

    So i read through this Christian Mcbride tune called I'm Coming Home... a different style, could have even pulled out one of my solid bodies... but i usually get paid for that... sorry, i just don't really like the feel.

    Anyway... very funky and I was fairly loud. Rich... the felt only cut between 5 and 7% of the sound of open strings... I took the felt out. I do have a big band gig Tues night, that's what the felts for, the horns, they get loud.

    I can mute as needed, usually loud live gigs, studio is usually direct and iso... The pinky is the same on my solid bodies... the distance is same. Jazz Boxes are big, more space everywhere... so raised pick guards.

    Thanks 3625... I go for long periods where I play 5 or 6 nights with doubles etc... never have had ant hand, wrist or arm problem... lots of brain problems.

    Anyway... i went through all these technical issues many years ago, made my choices and haven't had any problems. I mean I played gigs with steve smith, Coster when Vital info was just getting started... Randy Jackson was playing bass...but that was loud fusion, not what I thought of as jazz, but burnin.

    So one more example,


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  3. #52

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    That was cookin' Reg

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Looks to me as though he anchors hand to bridge and def. uses small finger as stop. So I wouldn't call floating..

    Just a note...he is playing a solid body with more of a rock style technique... very different than playing a jazz box with jazz technique.

    Reg
    I saw him play in Norway and he was using an Ibanez GB10, played clean the whole night except for one song.He sounded like a mix between Gambale(himself) and Benson.

  5. #54

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    Anchored is your answer I've been picking with a floating wrist for about 8 years, switched to anchoring my pinky and didn't look back since. It's more efficient for your movements are smaller + it's way more precise and easier to get on top of the string, so ideal for string skipping.

  6. #55

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    Hey Denoow... so you also define anchored as any part of hand touching the guitar...?

    What's up with the vid post ??? Rock fusion technique, nice but...

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Denoow... so you also define anchored as any part of hand touching the guitar...?

    What's up with the vid post ??? Rock fusion technique, nice but...
    That's Guthrie Govan in the video.

  8. #57

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    Thanks soco... is this the same guy...

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Thanks soco... is this the same guy...
    Yeah. He is a great guitarist, but not a great straight-ahead jazz guitarist by any means.

  10. #59

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    Yeah he is a monster player - I don't think he plays jazz much other than hacking around but clearly could if he put the years in. Another guy like that (but probably more disciplined) is Tosim Abasi. There sure is no shortage of killer chops around.

    What was this thread about again?

  11. #60

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    Yeah I define "anchored" as having somekind of reference point or "support" on the guitar. You can either do it with your wrist or with your pinky. I think I do both a little. Karate-stroke on the strings, putting my pinky on the body and my wrist rests on the strings. Both loosely. Earlier on I didn't use the pinky-thing but since I did I pick cleaner, faster, more effortless. I don't share the critics view that the dynamics would be less. If anything you can do more in that department. Your movements are smaller so if you angle the pick a little you can make it sound super agressive and as loud as anything played without the pinky thingy. Besides I find switching from string to string easier this way.

    There really isn't a right or wrong way. As mentioned on here, Gambale has a great technique. But he's sweep picking or economy picking most of the time (or all of the time). I found that easier without the anchoring as well. The hand needs to kind of float through the strings a bit. With practise, I also learned how to do that with anchoring and found is easier to switch techniques this way. It just gives me more control.

    Guthrie Govan might not be a "straight-ahead jazz-guitarist" (whatever that means), but there's no denying his incredible technique. He's the virtuoso's virtuoso. He's alternate picking insanely difficult lines at 18 or 19 notes per second without any effort whatsoever and very clean as well. That's what defines a great technique for me. But many people have different methods. Paul Gilbert is a pure rock-guitarist who made picking into an art, he's anchoring his wrist on the guitar and he's not usually touching the body with his pinky. Shawn Lane was picking very clean at lightspeed as well, he had a different technique too. Yngwie Malmsteen (metal-player) seems to use mostly his thumb and index finger and he's very good at it too.

    So do whatever feels natural to you. However, I would recommend anchoring at some point, since it makes life a lot easier when you want to go string skipping. The players I mentioned use either their wrist or their pinky (or combi) to anchor. It's just easier that way.

  12. #61

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    Thanks Denoow...That basically how I posted earlier... not that it matters. I posted the vid because someone sent it to me... I didn't know about... Guthrie Govan, still don't. But do dig his picking technique on solid bodies.

    Straight ahead jazz players... yes they usually have good technique... they also have very different harmonic, melodic and rhythmic concepts. I would dig hearing the "virtuoso's virtuoso", as you put it, on a jazz box diggin in on some straight ahead jazz. I would guess it might go somewhere...

    So is that it... we've defined floating and anchored. Basically as we started the post as...

    A couple years ago I was posting vids of playing tunes in a jazz style... eventually became The Practical Standards Thread. Each month they poll and pick jazz standard and then post playing versions of the tune. I'm not always in town
    so I'm always trying to hussel more guitarist to post playing examples. You can just post showcase style version... or casual playing example and verbalize your approach to playing through the tune... The goal is to help other guitarist and get feedback from your example etc... Some guys make very creative vids... and then there are guys like me... Read through the tune and BS about quick analysis and how one could approach. Would be very cool if more guitarist got involved.

    Reg

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    So he's right about Conti, Kessel and Farlow then? Oh and Henry B? What is he right about that is so profound? That everyone needs to work on time-feel? Wow, that's really a profound diamond right there.

    I think,if I'm reading between the lines, you're saying we should "man up". I've always hated that expression.
    I don't think I said that he was right about any of those things. In fact, I believe that I said I really liked Henry's playing and that time is one of my failings. I also never said that there was anything "profound" about the importance of time, although I do agree that it is not really focussed on much by most people and probably should be.

    I also never said "man up" and nor did I imply it. I said that you will probably live a longer, happier life, if you don't get too upset about what people say on internet forums. Not true?

    I do have to say that straw man arguments actually bother me more than unpleasant tone - but even then I try not to get too worked up about them.

  14. #63

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    Hey Collin...

    So the floating verse anchoring issue is over... at least in respect to general practice. The 80 - 20 rule.

    I guess that's 20% floating - 80% anchored...

    The time issue, should we start a different thread... it will get a ton of posts.

    Anyway, Collin time and how you use it is very learnable , some may take longer to internalize. It begins with being able to understand and feel the beat or pulse. After you've developed the ability to maintain a steady beat or pulse. (straight time), the next step would to be able to subdivide that beat or pulse. Being able to hear and play organized rhythmic accents between that beat or pulse. Being able to subdivide is the skill of being able to have an organized method of playing, notating, understanding where accent patterns fall. Accent patterns are basically... the groove.

    So basically... subdivision begins with dividing up the beat, One whole note becomes two half notes, then 4 quarter notes, then 8 x 8th notes... 16 x 16th notes...32 x 32nd notes. (triplets also come into the equation, one quarter becomes one beamed three 8th note figure etc... )

    So this part is very mechanical, like I've posted many times, go through Louis Bellson's...Modern Reading Text in 4/4 and his Odd Time Reading Text.

    So now we move on to what we're really talking about... where we play or accent... ON or Off the beat or accent pattern. Just as grooves have a pattern to where the attacks of that accent pattern fall. So do where those attacks fall. By that I mean...
    Ahead... On... Behind.

    I break everything down to either ...+1 or 1+. My reference to where I'm playing on the beat is either...
    1)to the rhythmic attack ahead of what I'm playing. so I count or feel... +1.
    2)Or the attack behind what I'm playing... so the count or feel is.. 1+.

    I'm skipping straight or on the beat... we should now get that.

    Anyway there is a difference to the actual physical location of the two attacks.

    Think of a 4/4 time, beat 4... just as there is a difference between beat 4 as a dotted 8th and a 16th compared to 16th and a dotted 8th.

    As Rich was saying... jazz players tend to have patterns where they play on or off the beat. It's what gives the groove or accent pattern a feel. Contrary to Rich's opinion... I think playing ahead of the beat also has applications...as compared to way behind the beat.

    So the problems with playing behind or ahead of the beat...how to keep the general time and pulse... locked. Most amature players slow down when they play behind the beat and speed up when they play ahead of beat.

    ... slowing down really drives players with good time nuts... I would rather speed up almost any time. It's easy to slow time down as compared to speeding it up... well really they both suck.

    anyway if this makes any sense or sounds interesting... I'll either find old Vid or make new one to show these concepts...

    Reg

  15. #64

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    Thanks Reg. I understand what you are saying and would love to see a vid if you have one.

    Cheers.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richb
    Hi guys,
    Just wanted to put in the following:

    NPS or brute "speed" is virtually meaningless. The only thing that has meaning is TIME. The n umber of super fast shredders who cant play in time is enormous. Speed and time are totally different things which I often see confused... Guthrie has speed but his time is far far less developed than the brute speed.HE can play in time in a basic way, but it's one-dimensional. This aspect of music is particularly highlighted in jazz, where elasticity in the time is so important. The best jazzers have tension in their time, which means they are able to manipulate the time to give certain effects. From way behind (which is the grooviest place) through to on the beat. In front of the beat is never cool btw. In front is always lame, and Guthrie goes there when the time has any swing component, whether it be swing or 1/2 time swing...
    Great post! Definitive, explanatory and substantive . . . . with no harshness or sarcasm . . . (much appreciated).

    By the way, I find Joshua Breakstone's performance on the CD "Remembering Grant Green" to be a prime example of what you've just stated . . . frequently starting his phrases slightly from behind. It's ironic too, that Grant Green was one of the guitarists mentioned in this thread as being spot on with the beat. Joshua's not my favorite jazz guitarist . . . but, I enjoyed this work from him. So then, Joshua clearly put his own hand print on GG's songs, style and motif. That's cool. That's performance!

  17. #66

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    I actually agree with RichB 100% on the time thing(or Pat M), and I do agree that Conti's time can be a little reckless...but he does execute his lines at high tempos extremely clean, where most guys would be choking with clams left and right regardless if they maintained "the feel"... and since this thread was about picking hand positions and someone brought up the use of a thin pick, I felt it would be interesting to show someone who plays with an extremely thin pick.

    My problem with this whole time/feel thing is that it's detour from the OP that can be applied to every single post on this board. God knows I see a thread at least once a month on "Should I use #4 or natural4?", which anyone can jump in on and say "yea but how's your time?, are you subdividing for correct placement.?" ....(and not that I don't care about time and feel, as evidenced by one of my first posts back in 2008!!! ....Holy Crap 5 years wasted)

    I was actually really interested in this thread because I've made a major readjustment to my own picking hand in the past two months and I feel a major improvement, but would have loved to seen others take on how they approach it, (including RichB)...

  18. #67

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    Hey Colin... I think I'll get back to my Reg thread and get into the Time issue... this thread is still alive.

    djangoles... so where or what aspect of the anchoring/ floating debate are you interested in. I think we've come to the conclusion that floating is not having any part of the picking hand physically touch the guitar. And have come up with basically two anchoring methods... Reference fingers usually touching the pick guard or hand palm or palm/wrist area of hand touching bridge or strings.

    Most seem to view anchoring as better method for developing higher level of accuracy with pick application. There seems to be a view that the floating hand gives more freedom of movement...

    The next detail would seem to naturally lead to how the pick is held...

    As was posted earlier... at comfortable tempos, generally any technique works... less stress on the method of application. I'm not sure artistic/melodic content should be in the conversation... So we're basically left with basic mechanical technique for performance.

    Just for reference.. personally there are differences between what I would practice as compared to when I perform. Live performances... also have a show value, we generally are entertaining with our appearance. So many times when gigging and playing material that may not be New... we're performing. I'm saying this to put performance videos in perspective... they might not be 100% what we as guitarist, in reference to floating/anchoring, would believe to be best technique.

    Reg

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    djangoles... so where or what aspect of the anchoring/ floating debate are you interested in. I think we've come to the conclusion that floating is not having any part of the picking hand physically touch the guitar. And have come up with basically two anchoring methods... Reference fingers usually touching the pick guard or hand palm or palm/wrist area of hand touching bridge or strings.

    Most seem to view anchoring as better method for developing higher level of accuracy with pick application. There seems to be a view that the floating hand gives more freedom of movement...

    The next detail would seem to naturally lead to how the pick is held...

    As was posted earlier... at comfortable tempos, generally any technique works... less stress on the method of application. I'm not sure artistic/melodic content should be in the conversation... So we're basically left with basic mechanical technique for performance.

    Just for reference.. personally there are differences between what I would practice as compared to when I perform. Live performances... also have a show value, we generally are entertaining with our appearance. So many times when gigging and playing material that may not be New... we're performing. I'm saying this to put performance videos in perspective... they might not be 100% what we as guitarist, in reference to floating/anchoring, would believe to be best technique.

    Reg
    Reg,

    The main issue which made myself change up my picking was exactly what you described above.....It worked fine for comfortable tempos, but once it would crank up past a certain point it would all fall apart, (no matter how much I tried to inch up the tempo slowly) it still lead to a "not in control/tense/inconsistent feel" that I just could not accept anymore. I could muscle my way through the stuff if I had to, but that's really a bunch of bs.....So I figured what the hell, it's a leap of faith and I can always go back to how I picked before. As luck would have it due to some personal things going on with a group I play with I have no gigs until the end of April...


    For me personally, I found I've made the most progress by simply adjusting pick angle, (which I've played forever as straight on, or parallel like an idiot) extreme motion reduction in picking hand (which also I had way too much going on), and an almost Nazi like attention to fret hand muting for perfect sync....(quick sharp attacks with a quick release)....all very mechanical, non- musical stuff, but it's something I've never really focused a lot of attention to.

    I would say I lightly anchor/graze with the back of my palm.....which I really consider floating LOL....No pinky in the mix...I guess from my early metal/prog rock days anchoring always meant 'muteola style"....really an non moving object.

    Djangoles
    Last edited by djangoles; 03-06-2013 at 12:55 PM.

  20. #69

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    Hey dj...
    So is your hand used more as a reference as compared to the anchor style, and what type of guitar are you playing. Wondering if you play with same technique on big jazz boxes as compared to the smaller solid bodies.

    Do you have vids posted already... I'll search

    Thanks

    Reg

  21. #70

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    Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 03-07-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  22. #71

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    I think I liked the vid more the second time... It's really cool to hear from the real thing.

  23. #72

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    Yeah. I used to go to Gulliver's in the late 70s and catch him. I would sit 3 feet away. Pretty cool.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero
    Yeah. I used to go to Gulliver's in the late 70s and catch him. I would sit 3 feet away. Pretty cool.
    It was 1979. I was going to Five Towns College out on Long Island. I was studying with Joe Carbone and Carmine D'Amico. My buddy Gene Valles was studying with Harry Leahey in Jersey. We would go to Gulliver's every week. Gene would sneak in a beat box cassette recorder in a back pack and put it under the table. Raney knew what was up. One night Jimmy Ponder threw a sh*t fit and tried to get us thrown out. Harry knew too. He told Gene it was cool. There was one night that we went to hear Harry with his trio. I left the place floored. It was one of those nights where everything was clicking for Harry. Gene has it on tape. He did Shaw Nuff at a tempo that was off the charts. Man it was just tremendous. Yeah and Harry came from the elbow like Johnny Smith. He used a big thick thick tortous shell pick. One night Gene put the box under the table during Phil Woods set and it starting feeding back like a fire alarm with this high pitched long tone. Phil came over to our table and grabbed Gene by his lapels and pulled him up to his face on the stage and told him "figure out how to work that f*ck*ng thing you little twerp". Nice memories.
    Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 03-07-2013 at 08:09 PM. Reason: clean up

  25. #74

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    Carmine turned me on to Tal. Carmine D'Amico was subbing for Tal at Windows on the World at The World Trade Center opening week in the mid 70s. It was a society gig really with John Scully (piano) Lyn Christie(bass) and the drummer was Eddy Cacavelli I think. I remember Carmine going over the charts that Scully had written out for Tal at my lesson. Just chords BUT it was all the Hungarian Csardas, Tangos etc. and all the Continental stuff that you'd see at a New York Meyer Davis or Emory Davis gig. Tal knew all the violin parts by ear....so did Carmine. There was a guy named Axelrod who studied with Carmine too. He lived at Tal's house on the water in Jersey for quite awhile. You could see the Trade Center from Tal's dock.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckCorbisiero
    Carmine turned me on to Tal. Carmine D'Amico was subbing for Tal at Windows on the World at The World Trade Center opening week in the mid 70s. It was a society gig really with John Scully (piano) Lyn Christie(bass) and the drummer was Eddy Cacavelli I think. I remember Carmine going over the charts that Scully had written out for Tal at my lesson. Just chords BUT it was all the Hungarian Csardas, Tangos etc. and all the Continental stuff that you'd see at a New York Meyer Davis or Emory Davis gig. Tal knew all the violin parts by ear....so did Carmine. There was a guy named Axelrod who studied with Carmine too. He lived at Tal's house on the water in Jersey for quite awhile. You could see the Trade Center from Tal's dock.
    All this stuff is great Chuck - see I was born in 1975, and I'm Australian (never been to US), so I find this really interesting.

    I've heard bits and pieces about Dan Axlerod studying with Tal, I think there's some audio of him playing bop on youtube - big
    Tal influence.