The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Guys, guys......forget all this bullshit and play your guitars to the best of your [current] ability.

    If you think you can improve your tone, articulation,speed by adopting some other picking style....Cool.....
    ....Go for it but spare us the mind .... of getting like school marms about it!

    Just play!

    There is no "The Way"...get over it!

    Case in point: did anyone catch Julian Lage @ Smalls tonight with a killing band.
    [Taylor Ergsti/piano, Scott Colley/bass and Antonio Sanchez/drums]
    Wow....this kid is truly a prodigy!

    He was able to react to his demanding circumstances, often pausing to place his next contribution
    to the overall and rapidly shifting musical scenario ...and was not found wanting musically or technically.

    What a great example to all guitar players, to put the music first.

    ...If you want an example of his thoughts on the all-important [but plebian] topic of picking,
    check out his article in a recent Premier Guitar mag. [available on-line] and was mentioned recently
    either further up this thread or on another one.

    Question I ask myself when confronted with options [opinions] such as the ones above, it's simple: "Is this working
    for me?" and adjust accordingly.
    I don't give a rat's what anybody else thinks.

    So there! ha ha

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Seems to me that there are a number of different picking techniques that great players use. In fact, as far as I can tell, most great and not-so-great players use different techniques at different times themselves for reasons probably having to do with the fact that different picking techniques produce different tones and attacks and releases and even grooves. I took a peak at a Barney Kessel vid since he was one of the guys cites as a "floater". Sometimes his hand never touched the guitar(usually when strumming chords and playing slower bits and chord solos) and sometimes his hand appeared to be "anchored" by the palm near or on the bridge.

    I even took a look at some non-jazz guys as they were brought up by someone - the closest I could find to floating was SRV and he sometimes did and sometimes didn't. It really did effect the sound and the groove depending on what he was doing.

    If we are going to give advice to aspiring musicians here, the first thing that I would tell them is not to limit yourself to possibilities just because someone who pretends to have all the answers and berates those who disagree with him.

    In fact, if someone tells you that he is certain that his way is the right way and the only right way of doing something, you can be pretty sure you are safe in disregarding just about every bit of advice that person gives you.

  4. #28

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    I don't see any problems with discussing guitar technique on a Jazz Guitar Forum.

    So seems like we're getting close to what the differences are between anchoring and floating. So we need to label anchor locations and maybe define levels of anchoring. There is going to be an anchor somewhere... unless we suspend the guitar and even then our left hand is generally touching the guitar... an anchor.

    I tend to go with either floating rt hand or not. And maybe either fixed anchor, palm of hand on bridge... as compared to pinky toughing pick guard... maybe a movable reference type of anchor?

    When I cover blues, R&B, pop gigs and am using a tele... or simi, and there is volume, I change my rt hand technique. I use palm on bridge style and use my pinky as reference when I need it. Faster arpeggios... leaps etc.. or if I'm reading lines with horn sections... I need to be able to articulate... cleanly. But generally most of the playing is not burnin and I just groove. More in the style of the Frank G vid... just not the fusion type of licks.

    When I'm playing typical jazz gigs on one of my jazz guitars... I float with pinky reference as needed. I'm generally playing much more, lower volume ... at faster tempos... and again I need accuracy, not just for speed, but for articulations. I'm not trying to sound like a sax... even when I'm reading lines together... I want to articulate together etc, but I want and dig the guitar sound.

    So I'm a jazz player... I come from box guitar style, acoustic... that's my reference. When I play solid body guitars in the style and sound of... I adjust my technique. I'm not a rock or blues player playing in a jazz style. No right or wrong... but I hear a difference and part of the difference is the technique.

    Nice example ?3625, would be nice to see... The playings great... but very steady 8th like with only short close movements. Any picking style would be able to cover... Please don't take as knock... I dig the playing, but we're trying to hear and see the pros and cons and differences from different techniques. Generally those are easiest to see when we push the limits of what we can play... Maybe a better example would be less changes and more tempo and movement on the fretboard. I don't think we're worried about the artistic quality, of which I thought you were killin it ... but more of the limits and effects of the two techniques.

    I'll try and put something up also...Will be interesting to see for me personally.

    Again... the discussion doesn't seen to be a problem.

    Reg

  5. #29

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    Or this, I posted last week of me jamming on All The Things You Are, as well. It's also about 230 bpm. Not a video. But it's my technique of floating over the strings.

    The main thing that happened when I changed to this technique, many, many moons ago, was in the articulation. Straight arm I couldn't articulate very well. It was like note on, note off thing. I could play that style very fast however. Strange. The anchor provided drag for me, which wasn't really good, and was basically security blanket. I transitioned to the curl where my fingernails grazed the pick guard, to act as a light anchor. But I moved away from that as well.

    Going from my wrist alone gave my wrist more strength. I found I didn't need an anchor.

    I played once with DiMeola. He definitely uses his little finger as an anchor

  6. #30

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    Oberg, great guitar player, so focused on the music that he often forgets to button up the top of his shirts. That's commitment.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I don't see any problems with discussing guitar technique on a Jazz Guitar Forum.

    So seems like we're getting close to what the differences are between anchoring and floating. So we need to label anchor locations and maybe define levels of anchoring. There is going to be an anchor somewhere... unless we suspend the guitar and even then our left hand is generally touching the guitar... an anchor.

    I tend to go with either floating rt hand or not. And maybe either fixed anchor, palm of hand on bridge... as compared to pinky toughing pick guard... maybe a movable reference type of anchor?

    When I cover blues, R&B, pop gigs and am using a tele... or simi, and there is volume, I change my rt hand technique. I use palm on bridge style and use my pinky as reference when I need it. Faster arpeggios... leaps etc.. or if I'm reading lines with horn sections... I need to be able to articulate... cleanly. But generally most of the playing is not burnin and I just groove. More in the style of the Frank G vid... just not the fusion type of licks.

    When I'm playing typical jazz gigs on one of my jazz guitars... I float with pinky reference as needed. I'm generally playing much more, lower volume ... at faster tempos... and again I need accuracy, not just for speed, but for articulations. I'm not trying to sound like a sax... even when I'm reading lines together... I want to articulate together etc, but I want and dig the guitar sound.

    So I'm a jazz player... I come from box guitar style, acoustic... that's my reference. When I play solid body guitars in the style and sound of... I adjust my technique. I'm not a rock or blues player playing in a jazz style. No right or wrong... but I hear a difference and part of the difference is the technique.

    Nice example ?3625, would be nice to see... The playings great... but very steady 8th like with only short close movements. Any picking style would be able to cover... Please don't take as knock... I dig the playing, but we're trying to hear and see the pros and cons and differences from different techniques. Generally those are easiest to see when we push the limits of what we can play... Maybe a better example would be less changes and more tempo and movement on the fretboard. I don't think we're worried about the artistic quality, of which I thought you were killin it ... but more of the limits and effects of the two techniques.

    I'll try and put something up also...Will be interesting to see for me personally.

    Again... the discussion doesn't seen to be a problem.

    Reg
    Hey Reg, all good man - I agree for straight 8ths many techniques work. Because with bop it's constant, constant straight 8ths, I'm always tweaking my right hand technique to find which approach provides the less tension so after hours of playing my tendons are still happy and relaxed. I'm always trying different things out, hand angle, picks, different gauge strings etc. As for more tempo, we'll see lol . Maybe in the next couple of days if I've got time I'll do a take of 16ths at a slower tempo, which I currently find easier than uptempo 8'ths for some reason. I'm digging this discussion too, a bit heated at times maybe, but us musicians can be rather a passionate bunch

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Or this, I posted last week of me jamming on All The Things You Are, as well.
    Awesome playing!!!!!

  9. #33

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    I've tried it all with the right hand, and conclude there is no single technique that will cover for everything. Individual adaptation for different types of playing.

  10. #34

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    Floating, to me, means your hand, pinky or nails are not resting, or are not dependent upon resting or holding itself up against the body of the guitar for it's stability or position. I think it's impossible not to occasionally brush your fingers or your palm against some portion of the guitar. Physic is physics. That's like saying it's not a basket if the ball hits some portion of the rim or the net.

    Sometimes guitar players get so anal about detail they forget it's music. "OH MY GAD His middle finger nail touched the body of the guitar!!! I don't know what you call it! It CAN'T BE FLOATING!!!" In the passion of playing music the arm moves, the wrist moves, the body moves and imprecision occurs.

  11. #35

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    Yeah Gambole has wicked technique. But his jazz phrasing isn't really on the money. It's different. He's a fusion player. And a great one! And plays the changes well.

  12. #36

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    That you think Gambale swings is interesting. I love Chicks band and I think Gambale is a great player but there is no way he swings. No way. Not even close. His articulation is not there for a real jazz player. He has great chops for straight 8ths type playing. Maybe this is why you think my timing is all over the place. His timing is smack dab in the middle of the beat. But it doesn't swing. He doesn't play behind it or push ahead of it. His triplets are straight. I don't hear a lot of articulation. I hear a line of even notes. Not a lot of whisper followed by loud, choke, medium, loud, very loud, soft all in a fast run. It's even. Not a swinging type of vibe. Swing and bop articulates notes and using dynamics so you won't have straight lines. Dynamics are very important in bop and swing. If it doesn't it sounds stiff and "square".

  13. #37

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    I don't disagree about having great time, but it doesn't swing. It doesn't swing. Not close. He's on the beat. I've never heard him swing 8th notes, not convincingly. I've never heard him
    play behind the beat. There are all
    kinds of time.

  14. #38

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    Robben Ford, as much as I love him, and I really do, I don't categorize as a jazz player. Even though he played with Miles and has some of the language together, and he loves jazz. He's in an jn between area. I've heard him play some jazz tunes long ago. Four maybe? Cool. But he's not really doing that. He COULD swing it, but he's got that big Dumble sound and is not going to be playing Stablemates any time soon.

    Who I thinks got the best time, not as a swing jazz player, but who just kills it time wise is Wayne Krantz.

  15. #39

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    I can't reconcile the cognitive dissonance of holding Wes Montgomery and Pat Metheny up as the guitar players with the best groove and "in-the-pocket" feel, and then arguing that everyone needs to pick like Steve Vai.

    Richb - have you ever seen Metheny or Montgomery play? I don't get your position, at all.

    The hard part about being a guitar player is that there are a million different ways to address the instrument that all have different drawbacks and advantages. The exciting part about being a guitar player is that there are a million different ways to address the instrument that all have different drawbacks and advantages.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    ...keep up with the virtuosity of piano or horn players...
    How can you match. Piano player puts 10 fingers on a keyboard, in a preset scale position, and in a fraction of a second has 10 scale notes played in sequence. Similar for sax. We do have 6 strings, but only 4 fingers to press them and no possible way to play whole scale in one strum. We can never match. We can paly arpegios realy fast, but again, Piano has 4 notes advantage.

  17. #41

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    Fep to me sounds like he's playing with his fingers

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    Fep to me sounds like he's playing with his fingers
    Hybrid. Larry never plays with his fingers alone when playing an electric axe. However, his touch is such that it's really difficult to tell sometimes. I've seen him do this tune live several times. Always uses a pick. More often than not, uses his Valley Arts strat style guitar on this tune.

  19. #43

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    Well, it seems to me that Andreas Varady right hand is floating.



    And it seems that Metheny is holding his wrist against the bridge, but I`m not sure.

  20. #44

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    Kid has great chops, but for musicality 0 points, from me. Metheny is great. For each tone he plays, and each tone each member of the band plays, he hears it in context knows why it's there and to what effect, so it seams to me.

    Sorry, I forgot about anchored vs. floating. Music is important not the way you hold your pick.

    Re: Steve Vai picking, it was Vai giving his ass to play with Zappa, not the other way arround.
    Last edited by Vladan; 03-04-2013 at 09:44 AM.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Kid has great chops, but for musicality 0 points, from me.
    He's about the most musical 12 year old jazz guitar player I have ever heard in my life. You must have some pretty high standards re musicality. I'd sure love to hear the 12 year old jazz guitar player that you think is more musical than this one.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    He's about the most musical 12 year old jazz guitar player I have ever heard in my life. You must have some pretty high standards re musicality. I'd sure love to hear the 12 year old jazz guitar player that you think is more musical than this one.
    Point taken. I don't know about any other 12 yr. olds to play guitar like that. I could check the youtube, though, and who knows...?

    Daughter of one of my best friends is some kind of talented violine player, she's 8 now, she plays since she was 4. Got all those medalls, national, and from abroad (I really don't know the details), but God, I can't stand that squeek.
    Further, I hate all kinds of childrem exploatation, including any kind of showbizz. I know, I'm too strong on opinions.

  23. #47

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    I recorded a very non-musical example of my anchoring... Just to see. Looks like I have floating anchor almost all the time, and mute... ? When I'm playing louder gigs... I mute. I'm actually pretty loud in my little studio.

    Dig examples of kid... Donna lee was at about mm210 and Pat's tune which was up there around mm310, Pat basically plays 8th notes... burnin.

    My example is at mm260. I'll either post a tune... more musical or try and get something from gig.

    I recorded Bb- to A7... I posted two on my web site... this one's shorter. Neither thought out, or meant to be... wanted to see how I anchor naturally.


  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I recorded a very non-musical example of my anchoring... Just to see. Looks like I have floating anchor almost all the time, and mute... ? When I'm playing louder gigs... I mute. I'm actually pretty loud in my little studio.

    Dig examples of kid... Donna lee was at about mm210 and Pat's tune which was up there around mm310, Pat basically plays 8th notes... burnin.

    My example is at mm260. I'll either post a tune... more musical or try and get something from gig.

    I recorded Bb- to A7... I posted two on my web site... this one's shorter. Neither thought out, or meant to be... wanted to see how I anchor naturally.


    Reg,

    Thanks for the example.... One question

    When you say "floating anchor" do you mean...pinky on the pickguard as a depth guide??? Can't really tell in the video if that's the case. I find that the terminology is still a little fuzzy in this thread as to what is what.

    I guess I've always viewed the pinky/depth guide thing as still "floating" since you aren't laying the back of your palm on the strings really for any extended period of time. (Keeping with the nautical metaphor, the pinky thing is akin to bobber, and the anchor is well a.....

    BTW your time and rhythms are really weak and sloppy, you should look into working on that a bit....LOL!!!

  25. #49

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    hey djangoles... My pinky is usually touching, as a reference, or as you put a bobber for depth. It also helps me with leaps, (short casts).

    As to terminology... I don't know, in an earlier post my reasoning was if I'm touching with hand, I'm not floating. I really think what ever one chooses to use will work. The muting issue to me is a different issue. I thought the focus of the thread was to figure out which technique would lead to most efficient picking.

    I think I'll post another example... different style and see what I get.

    Thanks for checking out...Reg

  26. #50

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    Hey Reg, I dug the playing - you really put yourself out there, which is cool. Looks like you've found a hand/wrist position which works for you and is comfortable, - a bensonish type of technique, gives it a hip kind of snap and really pops out the note. Try as I have, my thumb doesn't like to bend back like that, seems natural to some like yourself. Raney also played with his thumb back, makes the pick secure doesn't it?

    When I first posted on this thread, I didn't think of the pinky anchoring thing - I was just referring to either a floating wrist compared to a "Vai" type of anchor. So I tried doing the pinky anchor thing last night, interesting, will look into it.

    Thanks for posting the vid, I'll get around to one myself when I've got time (and when the ex-wife sends my zoom video recorder in the mail lol). Things are a bit hectic now, so it might be a couple of weeks, but I'll have a go at it cause the more people that post vids, the better the forum will be. Cheers