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I started playing jazz a few months back and my new teacher told me I shouldn't be economy picking. In most occassions it's not that hard to switch over to alternate picking, but when I'm playing certain lines that have one note per string and go from the A string to the high E, I'm still struggling. Is it really that important for your sound and timing to be alternate picking EVERYTHING and should I try to change it?
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01-19-2013 07:26 PM
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I use economy picking, it feels more natural for me than alternate.
I would suggest doing what feels most comfortable for you. It is also a question of what sound you are looking for. Economy sounds more fluid and legato, alternate sounds more percussive.
Frank Gambale is using economy and sweep picking only, and he has incredible technique-some of the best out there.
Pat Metheny mentioned in an interview that he might want to take some lessons from Gambale to work on his picking technique. Sylvain Luc is another guitarist that, although he is using a lot of different techniques such as legato and finger-style, sounds like he is using economy for his faster lines.
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If those great guitarists do it, I think I'm gonna stick with it as well. Like you said, alternate picking doesn't feel natural to me either. Why go around a string when you can just hit it in the same exact movement? Thanks for your input!
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Yeah, I agree. Just watch out with the timing, sometimes it is easy to rush a bit especially in slower tempos.
Originally Posted by Desafinado
I use a combination of economy and legato and it is working well.
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I think it's foolish to be dogmatic about one or the other. I think it's easier to be rhythmically and dynamically precise with alternative picking, but for many passages it does slow things down considerably.
I do think it's helpful to have a firm grasp of alternate picking and its mechanics. One doesn't need to be a speed wizard with it, but to have a handle on all the various string crossing "moves" is helpful.
For what it's worth, I believe Pat Martino alt picks exclusively, Kreisberg seems to do a lot of it. In the not-jazz realm there's Steve Morse and of course Paul Gilbert. Looks like Kurt, Mike Moreno, Jimmy Bruno, Ben Monder, Gambale as mentioned are some folks that use mostly economy picking. A lot of old school jazzers use rest stroke and economy. Then there's Holdsworth who barely picks anything, Wes with his thumb, Tim Miller who uses hybrid picking to play lines. A lot of different approaches under the sun.
There's a local guy here named Greg Duncan who can really handle any tempo. He alternate picks everything: Greg Duncan | Free Music, Tour Dates, Photos, Videos insane tempos and very nice lines.
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I fully agree with you, but it's indeed the 'slowing down' part I'm worried about. If alternate picking is better for your rhythm and dynamic, that might be a good argument for trying to switch things up though. Again, thanks for the resonse, that was really helpful : )
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It is perfectly possible to play with great rhythm using the economy-picking. Originally Posted by Desafinado
Gambale has incredible sense of rhythm.
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Jimmy Bruno and many other jazzers economy pick rather than use strict alternate picking. 'Nuff said. Originally Posted by Desafinado
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I think Holdsworth economy picks as well.
When playing electric guitar I always economy pick. In straight ahead jazz I like to use hammer ons and pull offs a lot to get dynamic variation in the lines. It also saves me a lot of effort. It can sound very "machine gun" like if you pick every note, but some times you want that sound. It's good to have a variety of techniques in the repertoire so you have a greater palette. This is a great indication too that harmonic vocabulary alone isn't everything, but how you accent your lines plays a huge role.
When I play acoustic guitars I use gypsy picking with a lot of rest strokes. The acoustic guitar can sound very weak and lifeless if you don't pick and accent notes in a certain way. That's my personal preference. But in gypsy jazz it is a must unless you're playing electric. People may argue otherwise out of laziness, and that's fine. But try to economy pick in an acoustic setting with three or more guitars other than you. You'll drown.
My 2 cents.
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Do Both!
They both have their ups and downs. And they're not exclusive of each other. Doing one will help the other.
It also depends on style. If you want to play like George Benson, you're not going to get that sound with economy picking. If you want to play like Allan Holdsworth, use economy.
I've tried everything and still trying everything including using fingers (Thumb, Thumb & Index, 3 finger), hybrid picking, gypsy rest stroke picking, benson picking, economy, alternate.
Having said this, my technique is no where near perfect but I learn each time I work on one of these and it benefits everything else that I do. (although I may have better technique if I stuck with one..?
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It's actually dangerous to force yourself into a technique that you don't feel natural nor comfortable, since you will start forcing things and end up either disappointed or with pain in your hand. Just do whatever you feel is comfortable and stick to it!
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Hey Jostein, didn't know you posted here. I met you one time you went to Jay's session at Hastings a couple of months ago. Kind of cool to meet someone outside of here who posts here haha. Originally Posted by Soco
Anyways, I've been working on economy picking. Kurt Rosenwinkel is a big user of economy. I really suck at it, but it's something that a lot of people use today. We kind of have to keep up with the times.
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Based on all your reactions, I think I'm gonna work on my alternate picking untill I feel completely comfortable with it. Lines that involve arpeggios like xx3211 and are played F,A,C,F, I think I'll just sweep and mute with my left hand. Things like that have their own unique sound, which is nice
. I can't really judge whether I like the 'machine gun' sound or the smooth sound better, untill I can play both. So yeah: time to alternate pick some scales.
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I do think there is value in devoting a lot of time to one approach, rather than just dabbling in everything. I think it's a balance. At the same time, some folks just focus on the line and use whatever technique sounds best.
I'll say just pay meticulous attention to the timbre, rhythm, timing, accents, dynamic, etc, whatever you are doing. Too many players gloss this stuff over, in my opinion.
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Maybe your teacher would like to improve an aspect of your playing that he sees as needing help and so he is asking you to alternate pick for now so that your technique will improve. If that is the case, then I would go with that and see if it helps. It sounds like you played other styles before starting jazz and maybe your teacher is trying to break some habits that are not helpful when playing jazz? If it is hard for you to work up speed when alternate picking, then that is probably something that your teacher thinks you should work on. Originally Posted by Desafinado
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Impressive! I played rock for like 8 months before I started playing jazz, and the man who taught me that, never said economy picking was a problem. Originally Posted by ColinO
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I don't think economy playing as such is a problem. It's just that with both economy playing and alternate picking at hand (no pun intended) you have more to choose from when you are phrasing (for example play staccato with alternate picking and slur with slides, hammer ons etc.).
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One advantage of alternating picking is it can help a student with their timing. For eighth notes and sixteenth notes the direction of the hand is more in synch with the direction of a taping foot. And it's easier to play syncopated patterns when you use up picks on the up beats and down strokes on the down beats for 1/8th notes (for 16th notes... well you get the idea).
Maybe your teacher just wants you to use only alternating picking for now to help you develop your sense of rhythm and reading rhythms
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1.The truth lies here in every thread and reply!
2.The pick is one of the most awkward things you can place in anyones hand!
3. You can get used to anything( and then swear by it!)!
How's that for a more spiritual answer!
Marc
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There is no wrong, but the more tools you have, the fewer unsolvable problems.
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It's easy to stick to what feels natural at first, but you have no way of telling if it's something that will become a crutch somewhere down the line. You went to a teacher, because he has that perspective, so perhaps the first thing to do would be to ask him why he thinks that way.
As someone who first learned economy picking ('felt more natural'), I am of an opinion that every guitarist should start with alternate picking. As was stated by Fep, it will help you develop better time. It will take out a lot of guesswork as far as how to execute specific passages. It will make sight-reading easier. Your picking hand - typically the dominant hand - will become a little drummer, and will lead your fretting hand, not the other way round.
Once you advance you can switch, or mix and match, but alternate picking is a great base, especially for a groove based music, such as jazz.
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The only people that say economy picking is a no-no are the shred/rock guitarists, who are generally in a bubble and don't really know anything beyond their small world. Jazz guitarists have used economy picking for decades, long before the shredders invented it.
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This ^ Originally Posted by RyanM
You can play in time with economy- anyone who thinks otherwise, I have to respectfully disagree. The main difference between alternate and economy is that alternate sounds more staccato and economy sounds more legato. For bebop, economy works great- it's really good for swing 8ths.
Rock/Shred players use a really saturated high gain sound (a lot more distortion than Gambale uses), so economy with that tone can sound mushy - without definition, so they tend to like alternate better because the notes pop out. Same reason they like picks with sharp points - you won't see a rock shredder using a pro-plec either.
Comes down to whatever works - I've read that some people think Benson does economy ascending and alternate descending - kind of a variant of gypsy picking. I think Joe Pass did something similar. Maybe Tal Farlow did that as well - not sure.
One thing with economy you can do it either free or rest stroke - lately I'm been doing more and more rest strokes like gypsy picking - timing wise it locks you in the pocket really well.
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I think the only time one method of picking would be a "no no" would be when you're learning the other method.
IOW, I think it's a good idea to stick to one kind of picking while you're getting the particular method down.
Maybe give 6 months to each and then just play without thinking about it. Only if a problem / issue arises, then maybe take a look at what you need to do to fix it.
There's no reason to not be able to do both.
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I believe you can definitely play in time, with great time, with economy picking (or any picking method.) It's just been my opinion and observation that when learning one's first picking style, getting familiar with alternate picking will help solve a lot of rhythmic/technical problems. Originally Posted by 3625
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