The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I pick appropriately hard for the sound I'm trying to get. Benson was right in that the best tone is a fat pick with thin strings and a thin pick on thick strings.

    On my archtops with Thomastik JS112 strings, I will often use a clayton black ravon .63mm pick. It's a bit thicker than a thin but not as heavy as a medium.

    Other times, i'll use a dunlop tortex .73mm pick. It bends a lot less than the .63 but the .63 yields a slap that just makes it sound great.

    And other times, I'll use a dunlop tortex 1mm pick. It does not bend at all.

    How hard I pick is dependent on any number of factors but I vary it according to the sound I'm looking for.

    With the .63mm pick, I have to pick quite a bit lighter to avoid the pick bending whereas with the 1mm pick I can pick a lot harder.

    So the answer is...."YES"
    Haha... yes, that's a good answer. There are many factors that come into play, as you say yourself. But what I generally strive for is a full sound with personality rather than anonymity, without slapping the strings overly hard. I don't really like those "light picking" jazz guitarists, for the record. I am more in favour of relative hard hitters like Herb Ellis and Barney Kessel.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    I have the book and the video as well, for the record, so I'm pretty well informed already, thank you. And I dislike the term "sweep picking" too. It sounds too "heavy metal". But we both know what it stands for. "Fall down" on a lower string, or "fall up", if you will, on a higher string.

    And yes, Jimmy's technique is impeccable. I'm slowly getting the real hang of it as well.
    With "lower string" I mean one closer to the floor I should have used "higher string" of course. and "lower string" for "higher string".

  4. #53

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    I pick pretty hard. Harder than I want sometimes, but it all depends on phrasing. Sometimes I pick very soft. When playing very fast I play much better if I pick very lightly. But I never think about do most times I still play just a little too hard. But articulation is all about mixing it up. I might play very hard in one note and hardly at all on the next.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I pick pretty hard. Harder than I want sometimes, but it all depends on phrasing. Sometimes I pick very soft. When playing very fast I play much better if I pick very lightly. But I never think about do most times I still play just a little too hard. But articulation is all about mixing it up. I might play very hard in one note and hardly at all on the next.
    That's the thing I'm working on, playing fast and hard at the same time. It can be useful at times, and it's possible, if you're really relaxed in your wrist. Now I'm picking from the (relaxed) forearm like Jimmy Bruno, so it might help a bit.

    You're right in articulation being a mix of hard and soft, of course. It would be quite boring if every note was struck in exactly the same way, whether it's hard or soft.

  6. #55

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    Yes. My wrist and forearm are very relaxed. But I don't always like the very aggressive sound of hard picking of fast passages.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Yes. My wrist and forearm are very relaxed. But I don't always like the very aggressive sound of hard picking of fast passages.
    I agree on that. It tends to sound like a machine gun. Although it can be good for practicing purposes, at least. I have noticed that if I manage to play fast and hard and still be relaxed, it feels even easier to play a little lighter after that.
    Last edited by MatsP; 02-25-2016 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #57

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    This is a thing that's very important to me. I spent a lot of years playing rock and blues and developed a very heavy touch from all the bending, etc. When I started playing jazz, I discovered that I had to lighten up my grip (both hands) to do some of the things I needed to do, but I didn't want to thin out the tone too much. I started practicing without plugging in (this was on solidbodies and semi-hollows). My goal was to get a balanced touch, and still be able to get a wide variety of tones out of the guitar.

    There are a lot of factors. In addition to grip pressure, there are also things like where you're picking (closer to the neck, or closer to the bridge - there's a huge gradient in tone there), where you're fretting (in the middle of the space between frets, or right behind the fret - right behind the fret gives you a clear note without too much pressure, but in the middle is better for bending).

    Once you get a handle on those things, you can try varying your pick angle, your stroke speed, etc. I have my preferences, of course, but on the whole, I'd rather be flexible about these things so that I can make the instrument as expressive as possible.

    Of course, once you plug back in, things change again. I know some of you hardcore archtop types think of the amp as purely an enloudening [sic] device, but I see the amp as part of the instrument. Now you've got to incorporate the amp response as part of your touch.

    I haven't really gone about this in a systematic way. The touch/tone feedback response is something that's very intuitive for me.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I pick appropriately hard for the sound I'm trying to get. Benson was right in that the best tone is a fat pick with thin strings and a thin pick on thick strings.

    On my archtops with Thomastik JS112 strings, I will often use a clayton black ravon .63mm pick. It's a bit thicker than a thin but not as heavy as a medium.

    Other times, i'll use a dunlop tortex .73mm pick. It bends a lot less than the .63 but the .63 yields a slap that just makes it sound great.

    And other times, I'll use a dunlop tortex 1mm pick. It does not bend at all.

    How hard I pick is dependent on any number of factors but I vary it according to the sound I'm looking for.

    With the .63mm pick, I have to pick quite a bit lighter to avoid the pick bending whereas with the 1mm pick I can pick a lot harder.

    So the answer is...."YES"
    You know Jack, this post tells me you definitely would have a future teaching theology. It would only take about as much re-training as it would to turn a theologian into a jazz guitarist, but you clearly have the #1 model explanation of all things profound and problematic well in hand!

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Light pickers (yes, many modern players) lack dynamic expression, or even passion. Some of my non guitarist jazz friends don't like jazz guitar, yet they still like Django, Christian, Wes and Benson. The dynamic guys, even Wes with his thumb was dynamic.
    Try to cop a Cannonball Adderley line on guitar with soft picking, and compare it to the average sax player's version of the same line. It will probably sound lame, compression or FX will only make it worse. No wonder players stick to more "guitaristic" ideas, that only guitarists seem to respond to....

    I sometimes think we should all go back to training ourselves to be expressive on an acoustic instrument, and only then bring the dynamic range to the electric instrument by choosing the instrument and amplifier (and settings) that accurately reflect those dynamics. Instead we tend to alter our dynamics to suit the electric instrument, letting it dictate terms...... Just being devil's advocate ...... and trying to think of ways to make Jazz guitar compelling to non guitarists......
    As a counter point. Here's a light picker that gets the guitar to really sing and I hear dynamics and expression. Not a player jazz (whatever that is), but a great picker.


  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Encinitastubes
    I came across this clip of George Benson, who seems to use a combination of very light picking and spanking within the same line. Pretty cool.

    I'm definitely in the "more dynamics" camp. As much as I admire modern players and more current harmonic directions I ask myself why I'm so inspired when I hear GB play like this. I mean.....really inspired. I just want to have that mastery that he has and that playful child like sense of fun.

    The only thing I can think of is that despite his foray into "smooth jazz" George has "swagger". He has street smarts and swagger by the bucket load. Personality that just goes straight through the instrument.

    I get that from Cannonball, Stitt and Christian as well.

    A conversation is not delivered in a monotone.
    That's why a lot of jazz guitar players bore the shit out of people.

  12. #61

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    I'm shooting for 'just enough to get the sound I want' in the moment.

    In my case I'm more likely to get excited and play hard. At that point the dynamics suffer.

  13. #62

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    I'm uncomfortable with equating passion with just the strength of the picking attack.

    As a drummer, I was trained to be aware of the difference between loudness and intensity. Bop drummers being good examples of intensity versus volume.

    IMO passion is conveyed in a variety of ways including timbre, beat placement, note choice, rhythm, dynamics, accents, etc.

    Picking attack certainly affects timbre, but may also indirectly influence other factors, as well.

    I suggest you are playing too hard if you can't place accents in your lines.

  14. #63

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    I hauled out of the archives a beat up copy of the Wes Montgomery Style, ghost written by Jimmy Stewart
    ....the guitar player/teacher [not the actor]

    Anyway, Wes emphasizes re RH picking: "A MUST....the right hand must be relaxed.Do not force sound, but
    let your amplifier do the work.With a little practice you should find the right amount of pressure desired to make
    the right sound."

    It's worth trying what a master says....it may not be for you....but then again.....?!

  15. #64

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    When I teach my students I try to emphasise the importance of relaxation of the right hand. I tell them not to worry about projecting or playing fast, because that will come from the right technique and lots of relaxation. It seems to work. Bear in mind I mostly teach acoustic/gypsy style playing.

  16. #65

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    The idea that light pickers lack dynamics is absurd. It implies a misunderstanding of the word "dynamic". A classical guitar is not a loud instrument (compared to a horn, church organ) yet is capable of an immense range of dynamics. Added to this is the fact that the human ear is much better at recognizing subtle changes in dynamics at lower decibel levels as apposed to a plexi set to 11.
    It should also be mentioned that "light picking" on a guitar strung with .09 is very different from one with .13's. A guitarist should have the technical skills to do whatever needs to be done to express what they want to express on their instrument, with the "voice" they choose to say it with.

  17. #66

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    I try to remember these basic principles, I have learned over the years (some of them from musicians):

    Force is not power

    Sheer volume is not projection

    More effort does not always lead to a greater result

    Strength can be misdirected

    There is no reward for hard work without intelligent focus

    There's a difference between the process and the outcome

    Never louder than lovely!

    If you have a room full of people you are determined to talk through your performance, it doesn't matter how hard you play an acoustic guitar

    BTW I studied classical singing for some years. Opera singers must project acoustically over an orchestra. They don;t do this by shouting. Some of it, sure is in developing the strength to support the voice, but the quality that you will find in a projecting vocal sound is often called 'blade' - the upper partials and ringing harmonics in the sound.

    There is an analogy here, I think to pick technique. In acoustic playing, it's the 'blade' in the sound that carries the tone. Listen to Django or Eddie Lang, or a good classical player. It's to do with the angle of the pick or nails on the string, where the string is plucked and so on.

    You don't want this quality for electric playing.

  18. #67

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    The essence of the right-hand as in anything is control. You have to be able to control the pick, the amount of force, the angle, the amount of pressure exerted in the left-hand, in the amount of force lightness, agility, etc. it's all about control. You must control these things. And that's what practicing, drilling, is all about it's about achieving it yourself. It doesn't matter what other videos say, or other method books, you have to do the work yourself.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 02-26-2016 at 03:44 PM.

  19. #68

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    I think dynamics are often overlooked. You can't pick hard all the time, just like you can't pick soft all the time. I mean you can, but it would make the playing one dimensional.

    Some notes, if I want them to stand out, I would do the flick motion of the wrist, and it's pretty hard picking. I think it comes from the blues technique. But on faster, like bebop passages, lighter picking works better IMO.

    I wonder, would you consider John Scofield a light picker?

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    If you really want to lighten your touch it helps to start with both hands...tune down a step and a half...now play in tune.

    It seems to me almost all of my students who pick too hard fret too hard as well.
    Thanks. I'll try that. Funny thing is though that this only happens in a band setting. Maybe nerves? No idea.

  21. #70

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    Very hard and brutal, a little snap can be heard. I like when guitar has a lot of tone coming out of it instead of the pickup only. I have learned that I have picked too softly. I have taught myself to pick hard. I think archtops benefit from picking as loud as possible. One has to hear things vividly in head and loud and clear, with expression. I think picking hard and having some room to dig in helps. Before I used to roll off the tone knob, and have much volume from the amp, guitar having a minimum amount of volume. I think the best way is to play very hard and have volume and tone at 10 from the guitar.
    Last edited by Epistrophy; 03-27-2022 at 05:02 PM.

  22. #71

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    Pick dynamics are based on written/implied dynamics. No variation in picking lacks musicality.
    Marinero

  23. #72

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    The way I think of it, it is all in the physical mechanical interaction between the pick and the string.

    On a jazz box with big strings, high and tight, the strings have the advantage over the pick even if you use a stiff pick and play quite hard... the strings "win", don't suffer string behavior anomalies, and you get a great tone.

    I play jazz on a Strat using 10-46 strings (because those are the biggest that will fit through the old style enclosed Wilkinson roller nut). If I picked it like a jazz box the pick would "win" and the string tone would exhibit pitch anomalies during attack and decay (twang) and other sound artifacts to which the jazz boxes are highly resistant.

    I use a stiff pick .82 (what used to be called "heavy" before the multi-millimeter picks came about), held loosely, and played lightly so that I allow the light strings to "win" over the pick, to more mimic the response and tone of the traditional jazz box sound.

    The sound of the strings winning is more the sound of jazz. The sound of the pick winning is more the sound of rock, some electric blues, etc.

    It works nicely, I just have to bump the amp volume a bit and do the dynamic variation kind of "in reverse" by actively suppressing pick force for softer playing and relaxing that suppression for soloing (get it?) - that way feels more natural to me.

  24. #73

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    The idea that a "light" pick attack lacks dynamics is a complete fallacy. A proficient player is able to draw out much wider pallette of expressive subtleties because of the greater command of control needed. To make an overly simplistic and limited juxtaposition, think Pat Martino opposite Jim Hall.
    An instrument noted to have an enormous dynamic range is the clavichord; it's range of volume available spreads from just "below a whisper" up to "pretty quiet".

  25. #74

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    Yes, the overwhelming majority of dBs of dynamic range are below the moderate picking force level, just a few are above it.

  26. #75

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    I try to do everything nice and easy on guitar. I really like to play and don’t want to end things prematurely due to tendinitis, trigger finger, or any other injury from trying to hard at the wrong thing.