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Well, I had tickets in the 4th row to Pat Metheny tonight but had to give them up. That's a long story. But not being able to make the concert did remind me of a topic I wanted to raise. Most of my favorite players, including Wes, Metheny, Bireli, and Benson, seem not to use the pinky on their left hands when playing single-note lines. And now that I think about it, Robben Ford does something a bit different--he clamps his ring finger over the pinky to strengthen the latter. Have a look at some Youtube videos to confirm. My pinky has always been weak--I tend to miss notes or articulate poorly with it--but I stick with it because doing so is "proper technique." I've been working on not using it and I think I'm playing better as a result. It forces me to think through changes differently and my articulation is certainly better. It's quite a change, though, to play through "Donna Lee" and other chops-heavy standards without it, but it's really starting to feel a bit more natural.
Anyone else exclude their pinkies?
Joe
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10-02-2012 12:01 AM
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Since day one I've always tried to play with my pinkie as much as necessary, I favour the four fingers, four frets method, if I'm moving within a shape wider than four then I shift position. Got a lot of pupils (mostly rockers) who pretty much favour the three finger approach, the bonus being, I guess, is that it develops their stretching abilities a bit more.
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I've always used mine for everything. It's as strong and independent as all the others....probably from the very fact that I've always used it. But a lot of people don't. Whatever works.
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Strong little finger here and it works it's own position well, but it does a lot of flailing about as I play. I try to keep it still but it usually won't cooperate. It use to drive my guitar teaher nuts when I was a teenager.
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I always find this issue interesting.
It seems "logical" to say:
"What are you crazy? You have four fingers available, get them all as strong as possible! Would you suggest a pianist not use his pinkies???"
And that's basically how I feel. I have worked a lot on technique in both hands, I have done pinky exercises, the pinky is an integral part of all of my fingerings for the lines and chords I play. The first thing I do with my beginner students (even as young as 5 years old) is try to get them used to using all four fingers on the fretboard with good technique and positioning.
However, it's true, some great players don't use the pinky much. I think for that pentatonic vocabulary there is less need for it, as you're often just playing two notes on a string. There's something about the Wes/George Benson style that seems to just have less use for the pinky, maybe if we sat down and thought about it for a while we'd figure out why. Self taught players often have bad or improper technique but sometimes create amazing music regardless.
If it's easier for you to play without your pinky, it means your pinky is underdeveloped. I have some specific pinky exercises I could post if anybody is interested. You may simply need to work on it more. Or, you could leave it out and just see what you can get without it. That doesn't seem that sensible to me, but maybe there is some advantage of excluding the pinky that I'm not fully aware of yet.
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Also, I think some players don't use their pinky because they didn't have any sort of 4 fingered technical training when they were starting...I'd be surprised if any or many players intentionally ditched the pinky after attempting to use it for years.
It seems like at this point you're at a crossroads...you could start practicing playing with only 3 fingers, or you could take the time to develop the pinky. Each one will be time consuming and take some effort...why not choose the one that will give you more freedom and options?
That's just my thinking, but there may be some flaw in it that I'm not aware of.
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Sure, a number of good/famous players seem to get by just fine without it. And then, of course, there was Django! But I've always used it. I'll even use my thumb once in a while. Howard Roberts supposedly said (jokingly, I guess) he'd use his nose if he had to. But whatever works.
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I've always noticed this and wondered what was going on. I'm originally a Fender bass player and I learned to use all 4 fingers. When I switched to the guitar, I just kept on using all the fingers because of the hand position my teacher originally taught me.
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Barney Kessel advised strengthening your pinky by using it to play melodies.
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I'm originally a bass player, too, and it never occurred to me to use only 3 fingers on electric, and on upright the pinky is left out there on its own, at least in the lower positions, while the ring and middle fingers are yoked. And when I took up guitar it never occurred to me not to use 4 fingers. But keeping the pinky in check certainly does create different melodic and rhythmic possibilities, and that's a good thing.
Joe
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Django Reinhardt used two fingers to play lines because of his injury. Many of the contemporary gypsy jazz players play with three fingers but will sometimes use two fingers because many of Django's licks are actually easier to play and phrase that way. Stochelo Rosenberg also employs his pinky at times. John Jorgenson usually uses two fingers when playing gypsy jazz.
Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, George Benson, Barney Kessel, Bucky Pizzarelli, Kenny Burrell and Jimmy Raney are examples of players who used predominantly three fingers with the pinky employed when necessary.
The players who played swing and the players who moved from swing to bebop played out of chord shapes rather than scale shapes. That choice, and I do believe it was a choice, was due in part to the nature of the music at the time. In swing, the emphasis was on playing chord tones and in bebop it was chord tones plus extensions and alterations. The logical way to play the music was to have the chord tones under the fingers by using the chord shapes as a point of reference. The object was to phrase the notes as much like a horn player as possible within the limits of a fretted stringed instrument.
Players in the post-Kind of Blue era who learned scales and modes tend to use four fingers. Because the music became more scalar, it made sense to address the fingerboard in a scalar manner.
I learned scales soon after I began to play guitar. I practiced diligently but when I attempted to play swing or gypsy jazz everything came out sounding like scales. I went through a period where I was adamant about playing "correctly", thumb in back of the neck, four fingers covering four adjacent frets, strict alternate picking. Unfortunately, this approach didn't yield the results I was seeking. I transcribed solos by Django and when I learned to play them, they didn't sound right and they were uncomfortable and felt awkward.
For me, the seeds of awareness were sown when I saw a silent movie clip of Django playing on a PBS program. As I watched his two fingers moving around the fingerboard, I was struck by how natural and effortless it looked. It looked as if that's how a guitar is supposed to be played. The second big moment was another PBS special of a jazz festival where I saw Bucky Pizzarelli featured playing a set of standards with a small group. Here I saw Bucky playing his Charlie Christian-influenced swing style out of basic chord shapes. Again, I was stunned by how effortless and natural it looked. Django and Bucky flowing over the fingerboard, playing with downstrokes. Bucky with his chord shapes and Django with his horizontal rethinking of arpeggios.
Sometime after that, I spent 18 months listening to nothing but Django daily and asking myself one question. "How would someone with only two working fingers play this?" I was lucky enough during that time to meet a French guitarist who showed me a few of Django's tricks. Later I approached some Christian solos in the same manner. Only this time, the question was "Where are the shapes and connections?".
For me, the result was the ability to use combinations of two, three and four fingers on my left hand when I solo and comfortably employ downstrokes for eighth notes. My approach to soloing became more flexible and more authentic sounding when I played swing, bebop or gypsy jazz.
I realise that many here are more interested in modal and more contemporary styles and that a scalar approach is more in line with what they are trying to play and that much, if not all, that I have described here would be inappropriate to their goals. But spending the time that I did with these methods of playing proved beneficial to me and has helped me to get a little closer to becoming the musician I've always wanted to be.
I think that it's a mistake to look back at these players with the attitude that they were playing incorrectly. The played what was appropriate for the music and in doing so, created music that we're still listening to today.
My apologies for being so long-winded.
Last edited by monk; 10-03-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Using or not using your pinky has more to do with phrasing rather than the strength or dexterity of the pinky. FWIW, anyone who has spent serious time studying classical guitar, will have a difficult time NOT using the pinky when playing other styles.
If you watch vids of Wes and Metheny, you can't help but notice that Pat navigates the fingerboard just like Wes.
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GM,
Originally Posted by Gertrude Moser
You've managed to get to the heart of the matter more concisely than I did. The choice to use or not use the pinky played a big part in how the players I mentioned phrased. For most of them, the issue was how to get as close as possible to the phrasing of a horn. A secondary benefit is that it required them to play more horizontally along the fingerboard rather than being locked into position playing.
Here's a video of Wes with some great up-close shots.
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If you've already learned to play certain heads with the pinky, why relearn them without it?!!
Pinly gets used when necessary but I don't think anyone should expect it to do what the others can.
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No one is saying you should or that you have to. You have the free will to decide for yourself what you want to do. As I said in my earlier post, spending the time that I did with two finger and three finger playing opened up my head to possibilities that I hadn't considered before. It not only changed my playing but if I am to believe the comments of other musicians that I've played with both before and after, it improved my playing. My picking, my phrasing, my facility and my melodic content took a big leap. Not just in jazz but other styles also. Originally Posted by RyanM
If what you do works for you and you are happy with the way you play, I would say don't change a thing. For me, it was beneficial to examine at a microscopic level how the masters approached the guitar. I am closer to being able to play the way I've always wanted to play and I'm very happy that I spent the time doing it.
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Interesting, Monk. Why do you think it is? I had a theory that maybe using fewer fingers and focussing on the stronger fingers just allows the phrasing to actually be easier, because there's less digital dexterity required.
Thumb on the and alternate picking are two huge cans of worms as well!
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Jake, Originally Posted by JakeAcci
A physiologist will tell you that the ring finger is actually the weakest finger. If I remember correctly, the pinky is stronger but because of the shared tendon attachment is harder to train.
This question is why do most of the great jazz guitarists use three fingers when most teaching methods going back to the early part of the Twentieth Century stress the use of all four fingers. In a similar discussion that began today on another forum with Wes and Raney as the prime examples, it was pointed out that few, if any, of the greats were actually position players. But most of the accepted methods, Mel Bay, Leavitt et al, teach position playing.
One conjecture was that the great players opt for phrase-driven fingerings which is not covered in the aforementioned methods. Another way of looking at it is that completing Bay or Leavitt method is actually just the first step in learning to understand the guitar and music. If we are willing to accept that as truth, then that means that there is much more to be learned about the mechanics of playing and phrasing than what lies in the pages of those books.
If we look at another instrument, say piano, I would wager that there are few professional, concert level pianists who only went through the Brimhall method books before beginning their careers. Most teachers will invoke the works of Hanon and Czerny and probably a host of other pedagoguery not to mention repertoire before the student ever sets foot on stage for anything other than a recital.
I believe that there is much to learn from the great guitarists of the past. I don't believe that all of them did what they did out of ignorance because they all do the same thing in a fairly similar way. Of all the players I mentioned in my earlier post I have only personally spoken to Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel and Bucky Pizzarelli. I also had conversations with Howard Roberts, Joe Pass and Ron Eschete when I was at GIT. I found them all to be intelligent, articulate people. Charlie Christian and Django Reinhardt may not have been well educated but I firmly believe that they could not have done what they did without a high degree of intelligence. How many people do you or I know who could, after losing the use of two fingers on the left hand, completely rethink their approach to the fretboard in such a way that they not only regained the ability to play but surpassed themselves and became one of history's greatest players. Or how about hearing an electric guitar at a time in history when they were regarded as nothing more than a novelty and thinking, with the volume and sustain this gets I could match the volume and phrasing of a saxophone and then with no precedent, with nothing more than a guitar, an amp and a handful of Lester Young records do just that and then go on to become the only guitarist in the history of jazz to rise to the same level as the horn players and then influence them by taking the first steps toward bebop. That's not something an unintelligent person could do.
Great Players are great for a reason. I believe we ignore them and how they played at our own peril.Last edited by monk; 03-17-2013 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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But why or how could using fewer fingers be associated with phrasing? What could one have to do with the other in principle? We could say player X uses 3 fingers and I like his phrasing better than player Y who uses 4 fingers, but that doesn't point to any principles about fewer fingers that connect to phrasing.
Not that this is what you are saying, but I doubt that if I played a Wes transcription with 3 fingers vs 4 fingers that the phrasing would sound different, provided I was sensitive to the timbre of string selection in each attempt.
I certainly don't question (or even speculate regarding) the intelligence of any of the musicians you've mentioned. I used to play with very improper technique - I don't think I was much less intelligent back then, I simply wasn't aware that there was another way for my left hand to be interacting with the fretboard. Nobody ever showed me.
Keep in mind I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying, I'm more so just curious about the possible specific advantages of using fewer fingers. The why and the how.
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The number of fingers a player uses is going to affect the sound of a phrase because it affects where and how how far they move on the fingerboard. This is going to cause subtle differences in the lengths of certain notes and timbre as you depart a fret or string to shift further up or down the fretboard. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
For instance, John Scofield might play a Cmaj7 arpeggio R 3 5 7 on strings 4-3-2-1 with fingers 4, 3, 2, and 1 at the seventh position. Django might have played the same thing beginning on the 5th fret of the 3rd string then shifting up the third string to the 9th fret then playing the 8th fret of the second string and shifting up the second string to the 12th fret using fingers 1, 2, 1, 2. Charlie Christian or Wes Montgomery might have played the 10th fret on the 4th string to the 9th fret, third string to the 8th fret, second string and shift up the second string to the 12th fret using fingers 3, 2, 1, 3.
Scofield could have a more or less legato sound depending on how quickly he lifts his fingers. Django's notes would be shorter due to the shifting. Christian or Wes could be legato but the third note would be shorter because of the shift to the last note. Someone doing the same thing on one string a la Mick Goodrick would be very staccato unless they were very quick.
Regarding your comment on playing a Wes transcription, In the early 70s I learned one of Wes' tunes called Tear It Down. I learned with all four fingers and it sounded O.K. I came back to that tune after my experimentation with using three left hand fingers and relearned it. When I did, it sounded more like Wes.
If you should ever decide to explore this more, John Jorgenson has two excellent books with DVDs on Django's right and left hand technique. Two fingers only for lines. Garrison Fewell's first book A Melodic Approach to Jazz improvisation for Guitar uses Wes' triad groupings to facilitate moving up and down the fingerboard. Like Wes' playing, it's predominantly three fingers with auxiliary use of the pinky.Last edited by monk; 10-05-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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I've always used my pinky but never my fretting hand thumb.
Pj
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using less fingers causes you to move laterally along the fretboard so i can see how this affects phrasing to a degree, i still think you can achieve the same results with a little finger if you work at it
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My number 1 rule is, there are no rules. You can't say "It's always better to use the pinky" or "three fingers is better". The truth is, sometimes one system will work better, and sometimes the other will be better. It just depends on what you are playing, the size and shape of your hands and fingers, where on the fretboard you are playing, etc....It constantly changes. The truth is, the human tendency to think there is a "right answer" is really one of our major flaws, and causes confusion where there should not be any. This will cause confusion as to what fingering to use, and it will also cause your jazz playing in general to suffer because you may think that there is a "right" way to play chords, "right" way chords go with other chords, "right" scale for that chord, etc... the list goes on.
I find I like to use my pinky most of the time on the lower frets, and above the 12th fret, the same thing I fingered with my 1-2-4 fingers (on lower frets) all of a sudden becomes easier to finger using fingers 1-2-3. Sometimes crossing a finger over to a fret that it normally doesn't play on (using the finger per fret idea) all of a sudden makes a difficult lick easy. I find that my fingering changes constantly based on what I am playing, and the guiding principle is I choose the fingering that is the most comfortable, and allows me to play a passage at the highest speed.
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jazzadlelic, Originally Posted by jazzadellic
Excellent post! Well thought out.
As I mentioned in another post, I spent many years adhering to the idea of playing "correctly". I would go as far as saying I was a slave to the concept of correctness. I diligently practiced scales in all positions with four fingers using alternate picking. When playing "according to the book" didn't provide the results I was looking for I stopped listening to "the experts" and started listening to and, when possible, watching the greats. As someone else pointed out in another post, success leaves clues.
Watching videos of Wes Montgomery's left hand, seeing Jim Hall and Bucky Pizzareli playing lines with mostly downstrokes, seeing Django covering the fingerboard with two fingers and downstrokes, watching George Barnes play. These guys were playing the way that I wanted to play. So I set out to try to learn what they were doing.
The 18 months that I spent learning to use Django's two fingered fretting technique and gypsy picking and the time I spent figuring out Charlie Christian's three fingered shape based playing with mostly downstrokes gave me a new perspective of the possibilities of how to play a guitar. I am more than glad that I spent the time doing it and, in truth, I wish that someone had pointed me in that direction 30 years ago. Exploring those things has given me options that I didn't have before.
What I've done has worked well for me. I'm still finding new and interesting applications of the things I've learned. In order to get to this point I had to abandon a rigid viewpoint and surrender myself to the possibility that there might be other ways of doing things that might be beneficial to my playing.
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Sharon Isbin plays at least on piece in which she mutes notes on her low E string with her nose. It doesn't matter what you "do", as long as it sounds good.!
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Monk I'm sorry it took me a while to respond to this, but I wanted to say thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. Good food for thought. I'm starting another thread right now on a similar topic. Originally Posted by monk
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