Right hand technique/speed training

[mrblues]

Hello guys!

If you have a good idea about training the right hand (well im right-handed so lets not be confused, I want to make up my right hand speed with the pick), share it here, please.

I am stuck with it for a while now, what would be better. A gypsy picking technique, or "up and down", or just a technique which takes the rhythm of the music into account and the picking is related to that, or what would be the best method for that?

So what is the perfect training method for that?

thx

laci

[JakeAcci]

Oh boy...

[fumblefingers]

we've been over this one a bunch of times. i'm no expert but will attempt a short run down.

economy picking is probably the fastest. (see Gambale, Bruno)

Gypsy picking can be very fast too but is not needed for electric guitar playing. if you want to play one of those acoustic Gypsy guitars that is a different story.

alternate picking is the most prevalent but people may also complement it with limited sweep picking for some types of arpeggio playing.


These techniques DON'T all sound the same however. So, do you have 1-3 players who define the type of playing/sound that you wish to emulate, or very nearly so? if so, find out how they approach technique and strongly consider doing likewise. each of the above will require a lot of hard work to master. its best to pick your poison (so to speak).

[mrblues]

Oh boy...

Well, my apologizes, but I was too lazy to do the research here in the forum topics. In the other hand, there may be new infos about that, or webiste suggestions, or something like that.

Sry for the question

[mrblues]

we've been over this one a bunch of times. i'm no expert but will attempt a short run down.

economy picking is probably the fastest. (see Gambale, Bruno)

Gypsy picking can be very fast too but is not needed for electric guitar playing. if you want to play one of those acoustic Gypsy guitars that is a different story.

alternate picking is the most prevalent but people may also complement it with limited sweep picking for some types of arpeggio playing.


These techniques DON'T all sound the same however. So, do you have 1-3 players who define the type of playing/sound that you wish to emulate, or very nearly so? if so, find out how they approach technique and strongly consider doing likewise. each of the above will require a lot of hard work to master. its best to pick your poison (so to speak).

thank You very much for Your input!

[Bigmagic]

Bluegrass superplayer Brad Davis has an interesting technique called the double down up technique. Search it on youtube it increased my alternate picking speed just practicing it.

[kris]

Use "Guitar Speed" sofware...good for every guitarist.

[markf]

Oh boy...

[kris]

+1

[FatJeff]

You should be aware that it probably isn't either the left hand or the right hand that's slowing down your playing. It's the combination and coordination of the two. I find that I can alternate-pick way faster than my left hand can make any sensible runs on the fretboard. Likewise, I can do patterns up and down the neck with my left hand that the RH just cannot keep up with. You have to drill the two together.

I got a pretty good increase in speed by going through the Howard Roberts Superchops program. Right now I'm slogging my way through Frank Gambale's Chop Builder.

[JakeAcci]

Well, my apologizes, but I was too lazy to do the research here in the forum topics. In the other hand, there may be new infos about that, or webiste suggestions, or something like that.

Sry for the question

Heh, no apology needed, it's just funny because it's such a huge topic, so it's really hard to even know where to begin. I'm guilty of snippy one liners so I'm sorry, but here I'll try to be helpful...

First some questions:

Where are you at with your technique now? What are some difficult heads that you know and can play at tempo and in time? If not heads or transcribed solos, do you do scale practice? Can you play scales or arpeggios for a few measures of 16th notes with the metronome at somewhere between 100 and 120 bpm? Cleanly and with good time?

I think different strategies are required depending on where you're at. Based on what I've seen on forums and what I've experienced personally, it seems that a lot of experienced (but not necessarily 'pro') guitarists run out of gas at the above tempos (for consistent 16th notes.) So whether you are there yet or not affects what is probably effective practice

Putting that aside for a second, off the top of my head there are a few different right hand approaches

1. Alternate/rhythmic. Downstrokes on downbeats, upstrokes on upbeats. I personally think this is the easiest approach to get precise, controlled, and in time, but it can be difficult to do arpeggios and string crossing as fast as other approaches. Some great alternate pickers are Steve Morse, Paul Gilbert, Pat Martino, John Pettrucci, Al DiMeola, John McLaughlin.

I associate "alternate picking" with downstrokes on downbeats, upstrokes on upbeats, but I some people also consider alternate picking to be strict alternation of pick strokes no matter what the rhythm is.

2. Economy. Downstroke when going to a thinner string, upstroke when going to a thicker string. I haven't personally spent a ton of time with this technique, but I'd consider it the 'standard' for old school jazz guitar. It's much more economical and requires less effort to play quickly (especially arpeggios) but I find it more difficult to keep good time and a consistent dynamic with economy picking. That's just me. Obvious some people do not have that problem. Frank Gambale is an absolute monster of economy picking and even works out specific left hand fingerings to make the tasks of his right hand more consistent.

I think most jazz guitarists use a mix of economy and alternate, often economy for arpeggios.

3. Hybrid. Attacks are mixed between the plectrum and fingers. A lot of fusion guitarists are monster hybrid pickers. I've noticed that guitarists that use a lot of hybrid picking usually play solid body guitars and also use more slurs than guitarists that do more alternate picking or even economy picking. Tim Miller is the only "name" hybrid picker in jazz that comes to mind. In other genres there's Danny Gatton, Johnny Hiland

4. Rest stroke/gypsy picking. My understanding of rest stroke/gypsy style picking (and please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong) is that when it's time to change strings you always use a downstroke on the new string. My understanding is that these guitarists spend a massive amount of time on this technique, and the master gypsy guitarists seem to get it incredibly fast.

5. Benson picking. This has been covered a lot at this forum. It's more about a very specific grip and angle of the hand, and it also uses a combination of alternate and economy.

Of course, some approaches can involve more slurs, and that's something to pay attention to. Where you slur makes a huge impact on how the line sounds. Some players utilize more slurs (Holdsworth at an extreme, Metheny, Rosenwinkel) and some the sound of less slurs (Adam Rogers, Pat Martino, Jonathan Kreisberg.) There's also just playing completely fingerstyle.

A lot of the fast rock pickers have instructional videos out that sometimes have some good tips on building speed. (Some guitarists in metal/rock genres seem to spend most of their practice time on technique and speed, so they tend to have some insights that I think jazz guitarists can often miss.) For example, Troy Stetina's "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar" is a fantastic book on different techniques for playing fast, but it is certainly a rock/metal oriented book. Paul Gilbert's instructional videos have been the holy grail for many skilled alternate pickers. Frank Gambale's videos are also popular, with a focus on sweep picking and economy picking.

After a lot of research and experimentation I don't really think one is better than the other, although some techniques certainly can be faster than others. Mostly I think they result in very different sounds, which is pretty apparent with even a cursory listen to some famous guitarists.

There seems to be a consensus that whatever technique you are using and whatever material you are practicing, it makes the most sense to repeat the material at a very comfortable relaxed tempo so you are making absolutely no mistakes - so your body memorizes the motions it needs to make to perform the material flawlessly - and then only once the material is flawless should the tempo be increased.

I personally think pushing your limits every once in a while is important, but it can't be every day. There's a difference between training and testing.

In terms of what to actually practice to build speed, it seems that there are a lot of opinions on that and I think it depends a lot on what you want to play and what technique you are using, as well as, obviously, what level you are at currently.

Though some people might disagree, I've found it fruitful to experiment with different pick grips because I've found that certain passages are much easier holding and approaching the pick in different ways. Of course, there's a point of diminishing returns with this experimentation (I think I reached it, hah) but I feel I learned a lot by trying different subtleties of angle and wrist/arm/finger involvement.

After all the work I've done, the most important thing, in my opinion, for jazz, is to make your work as relevant as possible to the material you want to perform when you improvise. So if you really want to sound like Pat Martino, practice Pat Martino LINES, not just picking exercises. If you have specific lines or ideas you want to be able to perform at fast tempos, write them out and practice those lines. Go to VOCABULARY moreso than exercises, though some exercises are very useful. It's just that if you can play scales at a blazing speed that isn't that useful if you don't have vocabulary that you can hear at medium tempos.

That's the other thing, if you want to play fast it's not just your hands, you have to hear what you are doing very clearly, have a clear mental conception of the material you are performing. For improvisation this is even more challenging because not only do you have to hear it and execute it physically, but you also have to be able to think of what to play - use your brain and your creativity. That is really difficult, which is why guitarists who can play at fast tempos often play a lot of the same material (licks.)

I was at Wayne Krantz clinic the other day and he put it succinctly: The faster the tempo, the more you, with some exceptions, are going to use pre-composed ideas rather than true improvisation.

I can't stress enough how important it is to focus on VOCABULARY. If you want to take a solo on a gig and rip into a very busy climax, especially over an uptempo tune, you have to have VOCABULARY. You're not going to be playing scales or picking exercises on stage, you're going to be improvising lines.

And yeah, do a forum search, and this thread at AAJ is also very interesting:

Plectrum Guitarists: Towards a Unified Theory of the Right Hand? - Jazz Bulletin Board

The last thing I'll say for now is also that whatever right hand technique you are using, speed and clarity is about synchronization between the two hands. I think in Howard Robert's "Superchops" introduction he says that often when a guitarist thinks his left hand is slowing him down it's often actually his right hand, and vice versa! I don't know how true that is, but it's food for thought.

That being said, whatever technique you are using, the left hand fingerings make a huge difference in how easy a line is, not just for the left hand but actually for the right hand as well. If you re-finger a line, you'll be changing strings at different points in the line and depending on what picking technique you are using and what your strengths and weaknesses are, certain fingering orientations of a line can make things remarkably easier on the picking hand.

[kris]

Thanks JakeAcci for great answer.
Jazzingly
Kris

[JakeAcci]

You're welcome. Hopefully somebody will get some use out of that information/opinion, because it took me quite a while to write it all out!

[mrblues]

You're welcome. Hopefully somebody will get some use out of that information/opinion, because it took me quite a while to write it all out!

Hi Jake!

Thank You very much for Your kindness and answer, and sorry for my delayed answer. Unfortunately real life keeps me very busy these days so I dont have time to visit my fauvorite website. I will write a longer answer later about Your questions.

My 2 fauvorite players (there are more of course but I like them most) are Andreas Oberg and Rocky Gressett. They use rest stroke, but other techniques also (economy as You stated).

Well later I will write a tab example, what kind of runs cause problems for my right hand.

See You guys later and thank You very much again! Must go back to rl I write my longer answer later.

[KennyH]

To JakeAcci

Thank you for a very informative and well thought-out explanation of picking techniques.

I suspect since a variety of options are open to the player according to his interests and needs, a key element is perseverence after finding what fits most comfortably for oneself.

Thanks again... you are a pretty cool guy and generous with your postings.

Anyway, take care, be well, and play well

KennyH

[Reg]

Most of the info. has been covered... but I'll add a few details. Nothing new or hasn't been stated well above but I have chops... always have and it's not from having more talent than anyone else... I have good technique. I don't always play with the best technique, but I'm aware of what it is.
To have technique that doesn't hit walls... we're talking about speed aspect, which indirectly relates to all aspects of your technique;
You need to have starting points for all aspects, a base for references.
Where each aspect of your technique begins.
1)You need good hand, wrist and arm positions.
2)Picking starts with alternate style. the rest all come from that.
3)pick from the wrist
4)You need a fingering system that doesn't require thinking about or watching.
5)You need to understand what your playing... whatever works for you.

I'm talking about playing in a jazz style, not memorize and perform. Most players can practice anything and eventually get it up to pretty good speed. Still will hit walls, and usually don't have much control over feel, articulations or variations of.

Players with good technique play the guitar... as compared to the guitar playing them.

If you need more detailed explanation of any of the aspects, let me know.

Post a video of your playing and I'll give you an analysis and how to improve... Reg

[kris]

Dear Reg,
Few jazz guitarists do not use picks and they do not play so fast like with the pick... but they have f.e. more control over chord playing.
what is your opinion about that?
thanks
Kris
ps.
You have great picking technique!

[Reg]

Dear Reg,
Few jazz guitarists do not use picks and they do not play so fast like with the pick... but they have f.e. more control over chord playing.
what is your opinion about that?
thanks
Kris
ps.
You have great picking technique!

It is a different technique and a different sound, used in different setting... I don't use a pick in those settings, solo, duos and when backing vocalist or quite gigs. I usually use the Berklee style combo or just tuck the pick between my 1st and 2nd finger. I would use both styles.

I love the sound... but it's different than traditional classical technique.
I've posted videos of my comping using non-pick technique. Much more so with latin, especially the Brazilian feels.

But just as I don't force my picking technique when the setting calls for fingers or thumb, I don't force the fingers and thumb when picking is called for.

Thanks for picking compliment... most agree any expertise requires at least 10,000 hours... I play 1200 to 1500 hours a year... 10,000 doesn't take long. Reg

[kris]

Thanks
Jazzingly
Kris

[ecj]

Heh, no apology needed, it's just funny because it's such a huge topic, so it's really hard to even know where to begin. I'm guilty of snippy one liners so I'm sorry, but here I'll try to be helpful...

Great response, but a couple little quibbles.

Rest stroke technique was a far more common way of playing in early jazz guitar than economy picking. In the rest stroke technique (which is still used widely today by gypsy players) you start every string change with a down stroke, and every down stroke is a rest stroke where the you pick through the string and allow the pick to come to rest against the next highest string. Up strokes are not rest strokes in this method.

In addition to George Benson's weird grip, he uses rest stroke picking, as well. Other notable non-gypsy guitarists who use this technique include Joe Pass, Eddie Lang, Rodney Jones, Henry Johnson, Bobby Broom, Russell Malone, and, if you think about it, Wes Montgomery. Some people think this is what Charlie Christian was doing, too, based on reports and the fact that he originally learned to play in the acoustic tradition of the time.

[JakeAcci]

Great response, but a couple little quibbles.

Rest stroke technique was a far more common way of playing in early jazz guitar than economy picking. In the rest stroke technique (which is still used widely today by gypsy players) you start every string change with a down stroke, and every down stroke is a rest stroke where the you pick through the string and allow the pick to come to rest against the next highest string. Up strokes are not rest strokes in this method.

In addition to George Benson's weird grip, he uses rest stroke picking, as well. Other notable non-gypsy guitarists who use this technique include Joe Pass, Eddie Lang, Rodney Jones, Henry Johnson, Bobby Broom, Russell Malone, and, if you think about it, Wes Montgomery. Some people think this is what Charlie Christian was doing, too, based on reports and the fact that he originally learned to play in the acoustic tradition of the time.

Very cool, thanks for the info!

[nosoyninja]

I would add that many classicist players and old timers advocate playing ALL downstrokes for every note as exemplified by charlie christian. Bucky pizzarelli or frank vignola, for example, both use as much downstrokes as they can get away with, and this gives their playing a very distinctive sound and phrasing.

I first thought this approach was a bit silly, but whenever I concentrate on speeding up my downstroke picking, I find that the rest stroke I usually use benefits inmediately.

we've been over this one a bunch of times. i'm no expert but will attempt a short run down.

economy picking is probably the fastest. (see Gambale, Bruno)

Gypsy picking can be very fast too but is not needed for electric guitar playing. if you want to play one of those acoustic Gypsy guitars that is a different story.

alternate picking is the most prevalent but people may also complement it with limited sweep picking for some types of arpeggio playing.


These techniques DON'T all sound the same however. So, do you have 1-3 players who define the type of playing/sound that you wish to emulate, or very nearly so? if so, find out how they approach technique and strongly consider doing likewise. each of the above will require a lot of hard work to master. its best to pick your poison (so to speak).

[mrblues]

Hello guys!

God Bless You all for these infos! I learned a lot from them. Well I try to play my licks with the help of Your informations. I realized that I play with more speed upside than downside. So I try to research on my hands which technique will solve this problem.

thanks again

[Zippoarm]

Jake, that was an excellent post right there that warrants a sticky. After years of being a predominantly metal player, and focusing a large majority of my practice towards technique, I can say that I've reached the same opinion about technique. All the information you've listed is 100% SPOT ON! On a side note, jazz kinda caught me off guard on all fronts. I originally just wanted to try jazz out to break the monotony, then I really took a liking to it. The deal was sealed for me and I feel in love with jazz when I heard Joe Pass, Julian Lage, and Kurt Rosenwinkel. I was was extremely surprised to see a MUCH smaller focus on picking/sweep/legato technique and whatnot compared to my prog metal roots ... of course all this is countered by your (jazz players in general) extensive knowledge of chords/chord tones, feel, and improvisation. No worries though, I'm young and I'll definitely get there