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Hi all,
I've recently set up a video camera... Reg often says to post a video and he'll evaluate ones picking. So here's one...
My issue is that I'd like to increase my speed and play clean...
Please evaluate, not just Reg, open to all...
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11-15-2011 08:14 PM
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Just from a quick look at the vid. Im pretty sure GB's wrist is lower on the guitar and angled differently
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Yes, in all the Benson videos I have studied, that pick is at sometimes seems to be cutting across the strings with the edge at an angle approaching 90 degrees by the time he hits the 6th string.
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Thanks guys, are you watching the whole video.
I started with hybrid picking because many say that's a disadvantage of the Benson Technique. I was trying to show how I blend the two.
The single line picking starts about half way through.
Also the 480p seems to load a lot faster... That's counter intuitive.
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I definitely watched it all.
Here is Sheryl Bailey. I think her and GB have around the same angle and technique.
What do you think? More angled as the pick rises up to meet the bassier strings?
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^^ Yeah sheryl's elbow is basicly at the same level of the bridge on the guitar
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On that Take 5 video you can actually see a shot from the floor and it looks like George doesn't rest on the bridge at all. Just has the side of the little finger resting on the pick guard.
On another not re that solo. Interesting that he plays sort of across the groove. It's the only time I've heard him do that. It's almost as if he worked on a method to deal with the 5/4 sig.
Also interesting how he starts out a little tentative, even missing some notes, and then all of a sudden just takes control and blasts it out of the room.
Exciting stuff.
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Agreed. She cuts across the strings at a steeper angle with her pick and her wrist is def lower.
Originally Posted by Tbirdjazzguitar
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You absolutely don't have a Benson style picking technique at all.
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OK trying that... man that feels uncomfortable. And it's not good for hybrid picking. After trying it, not sure I want to do it.
I was going by the Tuck Andress article.
Maybe I should shoot for the Reg style of picking.
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Maybe you should shoot for the "you" style of picking.
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^^ this. For example ive sorta adapted methenys style into my own, and it works great for me. Originally Posted by bluewaterpig
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Hey Fep
Some missed notes in there indicating failure on the part of the left hand or a coordination issue rather than a picking problem.
It would be more useful if we could see your right arm more clearly (the whole thing) and see what kind of wrist/elbow involvement you are using.
The best flat pickers I can think of in thirty seconds, they all have pretty different grips as well as approaches and techniques to be able to execute their lines. I don't think there is one way, especially because we all have different proportions and our history with technique makes a big difference as well. There are plenty of amazing pickers that do and do not use the Benson position.
For what it's worth...lately I've realized that instead of trying to nail all my technical right hand weaknesses, it makes more sense for me to refinger certain things so I can utilize my strengths with my pick. Apparently a lot of technique monsters have this approach as well. I have some pretty bizarre imbalances, but, not to brag, there are some things I can pick at a pretty insane tempo, and other simple things I can't really get happening even at "medium up." So for me it makes sense to utilize those strengths. I think we all might discover that we have certain imbalances like that.
I'd be interested to know - are there specific passages that give you trouble? Could you play an example of a specific line you've worked on but can't get up to tempo, and then isolate the part of the line that starts breaking up as you get the tempo higher? That would reveal technical weakness more so than grip positioning, imo.
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Can someone tell me what the big deal about Benson picking is? I don't mean that as a smug "what's the big deal" question, I'm just a relative newbie and don't know. I see a lot of discussion about it, and I never see threads about "Burrell picking" or "Django picking" or "Hall picking" etc. What's the supposed magic of Benson's seemingly awkward hand position?
I've been playing fingerstyle exclusively for a few years, but Reg, Mr Beaumont, and Julian Lage make me want to give the pick another try. I just feel like I'm spreading myself thin if I try to do both rather than stick to one or the other.Maybe I should shoot for the Reg style of picking.
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A lot of people find converting to the Benson grip to give a better tone and more agility and speed crossing strings.
It might have been popularized by Tuck Andress' mammoth article on different approaches to picking, where he claimed that Benson's approach really was the answer for jazz. Some people also try it and don't have as much success.
Of the people who can play burning 8th note lines at 300bpm+, a good percentage of them seem to have adopted the Benson technique.
I've never tried it myself, though have experimented a lot with grips.
I just had a thought though...when people convert to "Benson picking" they probably then spend a lot of time working on picking to get acquainted with the new grip. I wonder if it's the extra amount of focus given to picking in the transition that really helps those people, rather than the grip itself
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Thanks for the explanation. I just googled that Tuck Andress article. WOW! That will take a bit to read through. Looks like there might be some good advice for my fingerstyle technique in there as well.
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I've used the Benson technique for a long time. It's benefits don't have anything to do with the amount of focus given to the technique. In that case I could have picked any technique and had the same or similar results. The Benson method has definite advantages, anybody that plays this style will tell you that, Tuck Andress included. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Joe, this paragraph isn't logically sound. Your experience as stated doesn't support your conclusion. Originally Posted by setemupjoe
It would only make sense if you added that you had also given the same amount of focus to another technique or gripping method and didn't have positive results (which might be true, but the information wasn't given.) You haven't disproved the idea that it's more so the increased attention and devotion to picking rather than the grip itself.
I'm not claiming that to be the case - just an idea that came to me literally as I was writing. Maybe I'll try the grip someday myself. Thanks for the pic.
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Fair enough, and to be clear, I didn't begin playing the guitar with the Benson technique. This was only after years of using other hand positions including various anchoring styles like anchoring my palm on the bridge, little finger on the pickguard and not anchoring at all. Through out all those years I labored with my technique and was very frustrated that my chops seemed to instantly disappear if I didn't practice constantly. Playing the guitar was always a battle, and one I often lost. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
When I changed to the Benson technique, it was weird and uncomfortable to begin with. I would never had done it if I hadn't seen someone who was a master of this style up close. That was Rodney Jones. He showed me the style and worked with me for a year to get me up and running. Through the months of painful relearning I just kept thinking "a day at a time, and one day I'll be able to play what he's playing."
I've also had the chance to take private lessons from Jim Hall, Bucky Pizzarelli and Billy Bauer but as much as I am influenced by all three, their right hand techniques never made much of an impression on me. Rodney's technique floored me from the first day.
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Rich there are certain angles and other attributes that make the benefits outweigh the drawbacks when it comes to floating. For Fet putting the heel down might help, but I wanted to chime in (yeah, I know, I love picking discussions) and say that I don't think it's always the answer. I've spent a lot of time trying to pick from my wrist, with my heel down, and it's ok, but when I need to hit mach 5 I have to curl my wrist a little and pick more from my elbow. "horrible technique" I know, but believe me I've put time into trying to speed up the wrist, and made progress, but it's nothing like what I get from my elbow.
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Cool, thanks for that info. Great that you got to study with all of those guys. Originally Posted by setemupjoe
The extra element of "I tried these other approaches and they didn't work, then Benson picking DID work" was what I was looking for.
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I work on the technique to get it accurate - I don't go faster than I can actually execute cleanly, in time, with intended dynamic, etc. But you're definitely right that it has blunt disadvantages. I use a mix in general.You sacrifice subtlety, accuracy and sound to get that last bit of extra speed - by using "brute force"
It's close to a 1:2 ratio! We're not talking about just a few extra bpms.What is your top speed when you tremolo pick a string w/ heel down compared to arm?
Actually I just did a little test, and I can pick my elbow-ish way with my heel behind the bridge, doesn't really feel any different...I can do it with palm muting, etc. Maybe I take back my initial comments.
Well, answering a different question - I have spent quite some time, years really, trying to get better at picking from the wrist. I did a multitude of different things without a ton of success, always had a pretty low cap. Any exercises or suggestions would be appreciated. In fairness I usually worked more on handling awkward passages rather than just blunt speed. I never really had a period of time where I just picked scales up and down all day - I'm probably better off for that.How much time have you spent w/ "heel down" picking?
For me lately I've been experimenting with a mix of techniques to be able to play lines at faster tempos. A combination of slurs, conventional picking, sometimes the elbow stuff, sometimes some economy or even hybrid. I used to be a hardcore always alternate from the wrist picker and tried playing everything that way and I'm realizing it's very limiting and doesn't sound like my voice anymore. Lately my strategy is to just do whatever I can to make it happen.I also have to wonder if anybody needs that kind of buzzsaw type speed anyway?
Point being, a little bit of the elbow stuff works well. I'm definitely not picking every note or playing all 8ths for eternity.
That's incredibly subjective. You clearly have a lot to offer with your experiences, perspectives, and skills, but this kind of statement would make someone quick to discredit you.And besides, hardcore "pick every note" type playing is pretty passe nowadays. No respectable jazz gtr player should ever pick on downbeats!!!
Never pick on a downbeat? Cmon...maybe "adopt a technique that effortlessly allows for syncopation and syncopated accents...." and that would often involve slurred notes on down beats rather than strongly attacked, but not all the time. Maybe you were just being tongue-in-cheek.
As for picking every note, it's just an articulation thing and it's individually stylistic. I try not to get too caught up in DON'T SOUND LIKE JOE PASS vs. TRY TO SOUND EXACTLY LIKE JOE PASS. The way I see it, if you hear something being articulated a certain way, go for it, whether that's Holdsworthian or Farlownian. Sometimes I like to sound slippery, sometimes stacatto....
There's a guy who plays around here who's probably considered one of the best guitarists in Boston right now...picks every note, can rip any tempo...gets called for plenty of modern stuff, doesn't at all sound like a throwback. Could PM you links if interestedLast edited by JakeAcci; 11-16-2011 at 03:10 AM.
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Thanks for the discussion to all of you.
Yep, I really like to play with my fingers and hybrid pick. I want a technique that allows me to easily transition between hybrid and straight picking. Originally Posted by bluewaterpig
Good points... Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Speaking of the left hand... actually both hands, they've taken a bit of a hit this year with all the medical stuff I've gone through. Some stiffness, tremors, and cramping. The way I look at it, guitar playing is good physical therapy.
I'll try to put up another vid tomorrow (I'm stuck getting an infusion for all the daylight hours today (The way my monitor and webcam is positioned against a window... I need daylight to get the lighting correct). I'm thinking part of the melody to Armageddon by Wayne Shorter, I'm having problems getting that up to tempo.
That is my first objective, to get certain melodies up to tempo. I haven't practice scales for a while, I probably need to start. I've been more interested in learning/playing tunes and building a jazz vocabulary.
I'll give the hand down technique a try... I use to play that way. Originally Posted by Richb
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I am doing the same thing Fep. Originally Posted by fep
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Yes, because, depending on the fingering, it could be a variety of issues that trip you up and prevent you from getting the tempo up. For example, it might be an issue of getting your pick to go from a downstroke on a lower string to an upstroke on a higher stroke, and a refingering could solve that issue. Or it could be that your left hand isn't getting somewhere in time, and that specific movement could be isolated and practiced. Or it could be an upstroke sweep that isn't prepared properly...etc. Originally Posted by fep
This probably sounds ridiculous to most of you, but Troy Stetina's "speed mechanics for lead guitar" has some great ideas about solutions to technical problems. It's just definitely a book for metal soloing, but that doesn't mean it's points about picking speed are irrelevant to what we're trying to do. I own it and haven't played through most of the examples or anything, but the text is good food for thought.
I don't spend that much time on them either. I know where they are, but I try to mostly practice lines or concepts.I haven't practice scales for a while
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