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Thanks Mark - that's very informative :-)
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11-30-2011 02:55 PM
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OK, so I've been checking out all these threads on Benson technique and I've tried it according to Tuck & Patty the article, and some of the videos I've seen. I'm still not understanding how it is that you guys are getting your right hand into the position to pick from underneath. I feel like my arm is about 12 inches too short. Now if I sit with my guitar on my right leg instead of in between my legs, I can sort of do it...but that's not how the guitar normally hangs down when I'm standing up. I'm still pretty confused.
Also, assuming I do get my RH into the proper position...I'm still clueless about how to angle the pick and how to attack the strings. It feels VERY foreign to me. Is most of the movement from the wrist?
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I was surprised when I held my hand out and let it curl naturally, then held the pick with the pads of my thumb and finger, how natural it felt and how close I already pick like this already. Cool!
The big difference is that I always anchored with the tip of my pinky and had my hand twisted in a little more, the cup facing more towards the guitar than up towards the ceiling. I can see how using the side of the pinky allows a wider range of movement across the strings with more accuracy and less overall movement of my hand. I will work with this. I see great possibilities.
Thanx Mark!!Last edited by brwnhornet59; 12-01-2011 at 01:10 AM.
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I appreciate your situation. The first time I put my hand in this position and tried playing I laughed and thought "There's no way I can do this." It felt very unnatural to me. But I practiced with it every day and after a couple of weeks it all started falling into place.
Originally Posted by FatJeff
You say that standing up your guitar is in a different position than when you're sitting. I always adjust my guitar strap so the guitar sits at the same height whether I'm standing or sitting. If the guitar hangs too low it would make this technique too impractical.
Regarding the angle of the pick. Look at the video I posted. I flex my thumb joint so the pick is at an angle as it strikes the string. 45 degrees is what most people mention. This softens the sound of the pick striking the string and makes it easier to glide over the strings.
Regarding the wrist movement, I would say yes, most of the movement comes from the wrist and also from small movements of the thumb and forefinger. With the hand position I showed in the video and holding the pick, practice moving the pick up and down without flapping the thumb joint up and down. If this sounds confusing I can post another video showing you what I mean. It's hard to explain.
If all else fails, I'm happy to video skype and go over the details with you.
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Great video. Thanks for going to all that effort.
If you make another video then perhaps you could get someone to hold the camera over your shoulder so everyone can get a birds eye view of the plectrum and how it hits the strings. That's the only piece missing from the puzzle for most people I think.
With those 2 videos you would have covered everything.
BTW I hold my plectrum the same as you.
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You're very welcome. I find this hand position very relaxing and my accuracy is vastly improved using it. Also before I played with this technique I had a tendency to rush the beat, but now my groove is much more relaxed. I attribute this to the fact that my arm is not so tense. Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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I'm still not getting this. I spent some time last night trying to get it to work for me again and I had no success. it is very frustrating - I feel like I'm missing something fundamental. Maybe I should take you up on the Skype session. Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Great stuff, thank you very much for taking the time to do the video! Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Feel free to contact me through my website and we can set something up. Originally Posted by FatJeff
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So is the back of the pick hitting the strings first on the down stroke Mark? You make the execution look very smooth.
I recall buying a book over 20 years ago, and it wasn't new then, by Ivor Mairants about the perfect picking technique. He had written the book in response to a meeting with George Benson who had implied that if he had had a more schooled orthodox technique, then he would have had his chops together much earlier. Look at us now- trying to get the Benson technique down.
I have to say that even if Benson is not to everyones taste, and he is to mine, I do find his live performances effortless in contrast to some. When all the cats got together on stage at the Seville Expo '92 springs to mind.
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Hi Stu. As soon as I have some time I'll post another video. I'll take Philco's advice and do a different camera angle that should hopefully make things clearer. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
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hey guys,
anybody from this thread making progress in Benson picking?
found a great picking example; kinda rock'n'roll benson picking;
man, he knows his pentatonics
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He is holding the plectrum in a normal fashion and his wrist seems to be pivoting off the bridge. This is not Benson Picking.
At the start of the video Zack is also using his right hand fingers to pluck.
That's near impossible to do with the Benson way.
But it's easy to change back to the normal technique if you want to do some shredding in Autumn Leaves.
That pentatonic and major scale stuff lends itself to normal alternate picking.
You can go at it like a machine gun and build up a collection of licks.
You can get so good at it that they almost become a nervous tick.
Then you change the order of the licks and convince yourself that you are improvising.
This lends itself more to rock. Well .....and extremely small area of rock where shredding is appreciated by other guitar players of the same ilk.
My point is that with the changing chords in Jazz music you need to cover other technical situations. You need to cross strings and you need to swing.
Of course a good alt picker can do this (Oberg and Bireli and others)
The Benson technique is just another way to approach this. It can make certain things smoother and easier.
Crossing strings, arpeggios
I'm not sure if it's great for the machine gun effect.
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It took me a while to 'get' it, expect a couple of months really. I forced myself to play that way and never flipped between the old and new and it got there eventually. I warn you though, your self esteem will take a kicking as you're fumbling about on gigs and missing strings....!
A little talked about aspect is that Benson technique has an effect on the left hand too as you have to consider strings ringing open (one of the downsides to the technique) It makes you smarten up your note choices there as well, watch Benson as he goes up and down the length of the strings to get over this.
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Easy way to remember how it should look is that the thumb remains pretty much locked and the first finger is pointing at your left shoulder.
For me anyway..!
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I abandoned my effort at trying to do Benson picking, for now at least. It is just too different from how I currently pick, and I'm busy enough with playing gigs that I can't afford to make any kind of radical change in my technique at this point. Anyway, what I did find in my quest to increase my overall speed ability what that it wasn't so much my picking hand that was the issue, nor was it really my left hand (although both could use improvement). The main issue really lies in coordinating the two hands precisely while alternate-picking. Originally Posted by kid deluxe
hey guys,
anybody from this thread making progress in Benson picking?
found a great picking example; kinda rock'n'roll benson picking;
man, he knows his pentatonics
I've been approaching this multifaceted issue in a few different ways. Firstly, I've been trying to reduce to an absolute minimum the amount of extraneous movement in my left hand when playing. I've got some specific exercises I'm doing right now for this. And I'm really concentrating on playing difficult passages slowly and accurately. I've done quite a bit of research lately and all legitimate resources concur that slow, accurate playing is the best way to increase speed. Go figure - I've been told this dozens of times but I just gotta go find out for myself.
Second, I've been trying to systemically reduce my overall body tension, since that seems to be a main impediment to just relaxing while playing. I've taken up study of the Alexander Technique to try to optimize my posture and position while playing. And I'm meditating.
Third, I'm doing "speed lick" training for about 10 minutes a day. I've isolated several fast sections of solos that I never could quite play at pace (some Clifford Brown and some Freddie Hubbard runs), and I've put them on one sheet of paper to play through with a metronome. Strict alternate picking just for the purposes of this exercise. Eventually I'll have these sections up to speed.
Lastly I'm doing the Gambale Chop Builder video daily (the cheesy one from the early 90s), and that's helping a lot. Not doing the whole thing yet, but I'm working up to it. It's a great resource for really locking in alternate picking. In my actual playing, of course, I play a lot more legato, with emphasis on slurs and swing feel, but as a practice tool, this video is right up there with Howard Roberts' SuperChops routine. I see this video being a major part of my daily routine for the rest of the year at a minimum.
The one thing I do still continue to struggle with is, funnily enough, my picking hand. How I hold the pick is still a problem. It flops around when I really start hauling ass and that, of course, reduces accuracy. I'm still experimenting with how to fix this.
Anyway, in a year's time it will be interesting to see how I'm doing.
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Jeff, I like your approach.
I've often felt it's a shame we can't be more scientific about this. After all, we're not really dealing with art, with dealing with physical and mental properties. If data could be compiled it obviously would lead a lot of us in the right direction. Think about all the crazy things people practice to increase picking speed - I bet %90 of all of it as only a quarter as efficient as it could be.
I used to be really into weight lifting and I learned that there were actually studies proving various approaches to training as more effective than others...I learned the science of it and it was about a thousand times more helpful than just following some other in-shape person's advice about what he or she did.
Wish there was more hard data about this picking issue!
Maybe some day I'll create a study, with controls and everything...
Actually I do know of one study, but I heard it second hand so I don't know if it's true. I can provide the details (that I remember) if anyone cares, but I believe the study's conclusion was that one of the best ways to increase speed was quantity of accurate repetitions, independent of the speed of those repetitions. That's been stated on this forum too...play something 100 times in a relaxed state with no mistakes...then play it 100 more!
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YES - exactly. The main eye-opener for me was this book: http://www.amazon.com/Art-Piano-Play...7677552&sr=8-1 Absolutely fascinating read. The gist of it: play slowly and accurately. Do a lot of repetitions. Funny thing is, I've got a girlfriend who is a clinical neuro-psychologist, and she's been telling me the same thing for years. But what the hell would she know? She's only got a doctorate degree and about 20 years of experience in the field. :-0 Originally Posted by JakeAcci
I would be very interested to see that study. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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bullseye DOUBLE. this is such a guitar thing. if only no one had ever SEEN george play... Originally Posted by JakeAcci
why not just learn a GB solo and try to approximate his RHYTHM before focusing on how he holds the pick? RHTYHM is what makes GB such a freak. i seriously doubt GB started his thing consciously. likely something he naturally gravitated towards as a result of what he was HEARING, not seeing. for me, any drastic change in technique has been a GRADUAL process that happened over the course of many months/years of thinking about how i wanted to something to SOUND.
i would venture that 90% of the people here would start picking more like Benson 200X quicker by playing along with one of his solos than by looking at themselves in mirrors to make sure they are still holding their picks "right".
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When you watch Rodney pick there is hardly any movement yet the speed is amazing!!!
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The elephant in the room is the accepted and taught " normal way to hold a plectrum"
Is it the right way just because it is the accepted way?
Is it the "best" way?
With everyone's physiology being so different can there be one "right" way.
I don't think so.
But I think everyone would LIKE to experiment.
It's just so difficult to change and the results won't come unless you commit.
And it's painful to give up everything you know.
But if you look at
1)Benson
2)Methany
3)Jesse Van Ruller
4)Rosenwinkel
None of them use the "conventional method"
They all hold the plectrum in a different way.
It's not just the Benson technique that breaks the norm.
My point is that I think for a lot of players the "normal" technique of holding a plectrum is incorrect for THEM and furthermore it's holding them back.
How to hold a plectrum.
Kind of important.
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or...another way to look at Benson, Metheny, Rosenwinkel...all guys that shed guitar for about 8 hours a day starting at a very young age and didn't emulate the way ANYBODY ELSE LOOKED when they were playing?
Last edited by mattymel; 01-27-2012 at 08:42 PM.
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Could be. It seems to be the artist with the original perspective who we are attracted to. Originally Posted by mattymel
I also wonder, in regard to those players, if they started out using the normal technique and decided to experiment or perhaps felt that method just didn't feel comfortable for them.
I also wouldn't be surprised if "ummm....don't know...... I've just always held it that way" was their answer to the question "why do you hold the plectrum that way?"
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I've heard metheny use those exact words on a video i saw. he was also critical of his own picking technique. it would seems even the pros are susceptible to "bensonitis". I've also heard jim hall comment on GB picking too...so maybe we ARE all doing it wrong...but luckily there is still only ONE GB!!!
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...started another GB solo and the first thing I'm noticing is how lightly he touches the strings with his left hand. another BIG part of the equation...
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