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Yeah. He came out near the end of the 80's "shred era" but I always thought he had a little more musicality than a lot of the others. He wound up playing for Poison but got kicked out for sleeping with Bret Michaels girlfriend or wife. True story.
Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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09-05-2011 12:12 AM
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I can't get enough of the YouTube videos of the Woodsongs performance by Frank Vignola and Tommy Emmanuel, and their fantastic bassist, whose name escapes me now.... talk about some speed, well-spent. It's speed for the sake of the music, imo - every time. They're doing their own take on Django-esque kinda tunes through the whole show. Did Django do Caravan? Seems he did. This version kills me.
What I want to know is how does Frank Vignola comp that damn fast, that damn long? I'd enjoy working up to it, but right now, I confess, I can't do that without a change of hand position. Frank studied plectrum banjo, and this obviously has helped his right hand.
If I cock my wrist so my thumb points inward, wrist at 45 degree angle, ala some Manouche players, I can come very close to this kind of comping... Paul Mehling's video "Pick Power" teaches this method. BUT, I play fingerstyle and I have the long thumbnail, and comping this way, I inevitably catch my thumbnail in the strings and tear it off backward, which feels oh so soothing. Ever pissed your pants on stage? If not and if you'd like to, try this.
Any advice about how to possibly deal with this huge problem is appreciated.
Here's the video. Enjoy:
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Well, I think the rhythm part has too much cheesy 80s sound effects which makes it sound too much like a jam track. It ruins the overall atmosphere you get when you hear that opening in the original. But uh, speaking of covers, this guy isn't a full-fledged "shredder" but his version of Whole Lotta Love is creative and musical: Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
Anyway, I think we all agree that musicality is first and foremost when it comes to shredding and that music needs breathing room in order to be appreciated. Just having a wall of cascading notes for 4 mins straight will get pretty boring really quickly.
Also, I have to check out Ritchie Kotzen now. I wonder how many shred guitar dvds were made in that era alone...
@Kojo: Awesome version of caravan. It has that cool gypsy sound like Django. Even though he was not using distortion or any fancy guitar techniques that shredders use now, I'd still consider that a form of shredding simply because of the passion and speed of the phrases he played. I guess my definition for the word is fairly liberalLast edited by Astronomer; 09-05-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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...You know it's funny, all of this shredder-speed-with-or-without-soul debate seems so silly compared to a musician who can handle superimposed P4's or triads in their linear-harmonic improv, building sophisticated slash chords over a given pedal point, the expansion or compression of harmonic rhythm, and using rhythmic dissonance via superimposed meter, etc. That's the "baddass" stuff, IMFO!
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LOL, I think we just got SERVED!!!!! Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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But being able to do that all at 200bpm. Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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lol. My point is that many "shredders" can't grasp those ideas or express them on their instrument very well- speed might, in fact, obscure them altogether.
Think of the drummers' equivalent: SOLID FAST DOUBLE BASS PEDAL 16ths!!! With the wall of thud on the floor, you can't even begin to express ideas like Tony Williams, Alan Dawson, Elvin, or Joe Chambers. The space vs density with thoughtful overlays of sounds, meters, accents, and such are extremely difficult to imagine alone, not to mention pull off in a group.
Sophistication and speed are two different things. If your chops are getting in the way of your imagination, woodshed till they can keep up. That's the best reason to want to be faster, IMO.Last edited by JonnyPac; 09-05-2011 at 07:04 PM.
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On another note, think of IDM or other programmed forms of music. They have no upper limit on how fast they can create the music- they can play god-like arranger and use anything they want- The irony is that they are usually uneducated musically (compared to a real classical or jazz composer/arranger) and the music is commonly lifeless and looked at as low brow. In a few cases (Tortoise, Landau Orchestra, Cinematic Orchestra, Jaga Jazzist, some Bjork) they have proved to make really good music with electronics and live jazz/classical samples. And ironically again, the music is not especially fast.
Last edited by JonnyPac; 09-05-2011 at 07:32 PM.
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This example song is sophisticated in these ways (and more):
- It uses only 2 chords, but they are from modal interchange (parallel key signatures).
- It is in 7/8 time.
- The bass plays the melody throughout, and the line has anticipations and interesting phrasing.
- It is a show piece for the drums and bass much like Nefertiti by the 2nd Miles Quintet.
There is no need for a shredder to solo over it to be "badass" and there is no need to push it to 300BPM- It's damn good as is. Consider mastering 7/8 time and making the scale changes over a piece like this. It's a bit more cerebral, but gratifying in the end. No need to hit the audience over the head with flashy runs- just play well.
Last edited by JonnyPac; 09-05-2011 at 07:26 PM.
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Oh, yeah. I'm with you 100%. My comment was more of a a tongue-in-cheek remark.
Speed has it's merits and applications, but certainly isn't even in the same league as note choice, and dynamic playing.
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LOL, Join the club!!
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There are players that can grasp or understand any concept of playing and can hear anything... but alas... don't have the technique to play much... then there are the players... yea can burn, excite any crowd, at least for a while....but what they have to say is... ummm lets just say there missing a few things... OK... I'm BSing... it's not like you need to get a few things together... you really need them all, at any point in your playing life your going to have different aspects of where you want to get... more together than others. That's just the way it is, we're not machines. You can have a technique totally together one year and the next... because of what or where your at in your life... you can be a different player. My point is as I always say... get the concepts and methods down... understand how they work and how they relate to your playing. With this approach... your always only a short distance away from what ever you choose to play. Musicianship is not simply practice... speed, scales, arpeggios etc... It's difficult to speak in a language you don't understand. Even when you can go through the motions... You can only fake it so much, and with jazz... that's usually not very long. Short term answers or fixes are just that. There's nothing wrong with that approach... but be aware of where your going.
Talent is a great thing... motivation, nine times out ten will get one much further. ( actually 99 out of 100 ).
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Well, I am damn skippy motivated!!!
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Nice one, Reg.
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It may not be because electronic artists are unaware of these techniques, but rather, they exercise restraint (unlike the wannabe-shredders). Electronic music is directed towards (1) experimenting with sound-textures and (2) creating a dance beat/groove. The artists I like tend to focus more on 1 than 2, and their manipulation of pitch and noises are to die for...and in that respect, it's better than any other genre.There is a lot of sampling in electronic music, but there are also others who use an actual musician or band in order to construct a melody and background (and they get their inspiration from jazz, rock, metal, etc). The post-rock type droning and the clever use of repetitive structures over an interesting rhythm is what makes it unique. (oh, and the sampling is pretty wicked too Originally Posted by JonnyPac
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I agree. when done well (with restraint and taste) the genre is super cool. I mentioned my fav groups above. I also know lots of IDM guys that piece together some sloppy stuff that makes little musical sense, IMO. I love post-bop, post-romantic classical, and post-rock... All by coincidence... I think. Originally Posted by Astronomer
It may not be because electronic artists are unaware of these techniques, but rather, they exercise restraint (unlike the wannabe-shredders). Electronic music is directed towards (1) experimenting with sound-textures and (2) creating a dance beat/groove. The artists I like tend to focus more on 1 than 2, and their manipulation of pitch and noises are to die for...and in that respect, it's better than any other genre.There is a lot of sampling in electronic music, but there are also others who use an actual musician or band in order to construct a melody and background (and they get their inspiration from jazz, rock, metal, etc). The post-rock type droning and the clever use of repetitive structures over an interesting rhythm is what makes it unique. (oh, and the sampling is pretty wicked too)
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