Advancing guitar technique

[princeplanet]

Here I'm talking about speed and accuracy as well as expression, control etc for single line playing. Specifically, do you think exaggerating pressure with both hands strengthens your control quicker? Also, regarding the left hand, do you find that finger tips coming on perpendicular to the finger board leads to better speed and control as opposed to angled? How about thicker strings and higher action. do they promote strength? I guess when I listen to Django, Benson or even C. Christian, it really seems they're using some force with both hands. Their playing sounds more dynamic and exciting to me than a lot of modern guys who use a lighter touch. Anyone agree?

[whatswisdom]

Specifically, do you think exaggerating pressure with both hands strengthens your control quicker? ... How about thicker strings and higher action. do they promote strength? ... it really seems they're using some force with both hands.

I'd be careful here. Injury is a real threat with such an approach. It's amazing how much strength and control you can generate by keeping things relaxed and not over-extended. Have you practised hammer-ons? If not, do so every time you begin for warm ups. You will build up strength over time, naturally.

[brwnhornet59]

Form and technique are paramount to speed, accuracy and tone. String gauge is a matter of choice. I prefer using 12's on my acoustic. I practice with this guitar at least half of my daily routine. Strength is built from this. I can also play very fast staccato lines with it. My electric's have 10's on them. It calls for a lighter touch, but speed is still attainable with proper technique.

Being relaxed is key. Over exaggeration of any form, IMO, is wasted energy. Staying perpendicular to the strings, IMO, is best. Holding your guitar properly and correct right hand technique is also a must. But the latter two are open to debate, mainly because everyone is different in size, ability, etc.. Your guitar's scale comes into play as well.

Watch a really percussive player like Di Meola, play acoustic. He has a perfect balance of all of the things I was alluding to. He is also one of my favorite Guitarists.

In the end, it all comes down to what you want to sound like and what is comfortable for you.

[Vihar]

I guess when I listen to Django, Benson or even C. Christian, it really seems they're using some force with both hands.

I don't think they are, not even Django or other (mainly) acoustic players seem to be forced. Forced tendons and muscles will pay the price sooner or later. I think the Hal Galper method of imagining/visualizing your lines stronger in your mind will bring out the playing dynamics better, without the danger of injuries.

[princeplanet]

I don't think they are, not even Django or other (mainly) acoustic players seem to be forced. Forced tendons and muscles will pay the price sooner or later. I think the Hal Galper method of imagining/visualizing your lines stronger in your mind will bring out the playing dynamics better, without the danger of injuries.

I read somewhere that Django's frets would show extreme wear even after a few months. He even had to resort to "Gypsy fixes" often to avoid string contact with the worn areas by moving the bridge to one side.

Sounds like some fierce left hand pressure to me....

[brwnhornet59]

Sounds like some fierce left hand pressure to me...

No, he just played constantly. That will do it. Pressing harder than needed gains you nothing but pain and thicker calluses. But explore and see what works best for you.

[princeplanet]

No, he just played constantly. That will do it. Pressing harder than needed gains you nothing but pain and thicker calluses. But explore and see what works best for you.

ok, that is your opinion, thanks. Any other opinions, or better, possible evidence?

[fumblefingers]

ok, that is your opinion, thanks. Any other opinions, or better, possible evidence?

what would qualify as evidence in this regard?

[princeplanet]

Tough for sure, but I'd settle for written accounts from witnesses, maybe? Surely enough people wrote about the way he played?

[Vihar]

No, he just played constantly. That will do it. Pressing harder than needed gains you nothing but pain and thicker calluses. But explore and see what works best for you.

That's it. My frets look pretty worn after a month too, and I don't even bend as much as Django did.

Nickel-silver is soft. It's basically copper with as much nickel and zinc in it as needed to make the yellow disappear. lol

That being said, it seems like you want to play harder, princeplanet. Don't let anyone hold you back. Play as hard as you want to.

[princeplanet]

Well, I have been trying it for a coupla weeks, and I gotta say, I am positive that it strengthens muscle memory. Things seem to get committed to memory sooner, there seems more certainty in the fingers. The right hand too benefits in the same way, especially useful more expressive accenting. Try it for a few days and see for yourself, even when you back off and play at "normal" pressure, you may feel more dynamic control.

Oh, and i have had carpal tunnel before, so I know when to back off these days. You know it when you're over doing it, maybe just save the idea for when you wish to speed up ingraining new material.

[fumblefingers]

it makes sense to master all types of expression, from very soft to very forceful. but there is a time to use each (and its not all of the time)

the best "evidence" of how Django played, other than seeking interviews or watching him, might be to study Gypsy Jazz guitar technique. it is alive and well and has some of the most incredible players that you can possibly imagine.

[NSJ]

Playing a note loudly or softly is often a function of how tightly you grip the pick, assuming tempo and speed are the same.

I'll always remember the following--"unnecessary tension is the enemy of the guitarist!". And maintaining the proper perpendicular position on the fretboard (ie, form) is a must-for me, the failure to do so means that I get collapsing 3rd or 4th finger.

[brwnhornet59]

Playing a note loudly or softly is often a function of how tightly you grip the pick, assuming tempo and speed are the same.

I'll always remember the following--"unnecessary tension is the enemy of the guitarist!". And maintaining the proper perpendicular position on the fretboard (ie, form) is a must-for me, the failure to do so means that I get collapsing 3rd or 4th finger.

Yup, I agree 100%. Experience is the teacher here. Let the tyro's do their homework and find out on their own. There is no better teacher.

[princeplanet]

C'mon, you can't deny that many earlier players learned on instruments with masochistic action and string tension. You had to play forcefully just to make a sound! These days many modern players choose wimpy strings and action and use a compressor to help even out their weak notes. No other instrument allows this. If that's your thing then that's fine, although too many jazz listeners I know often complain about jazz guitarists' one dimensional range of dynamic expression.

I don't know about you guys, but I worry about this. Maybe we'd sound more appealing to non guitarists if we found ways to be more dynamic ?

[Vihar]

Maybe we'd sound more appealing to non guitarists if we found ways to be more dynamic ?

Maybe you guys would.

[princeplanet]

not sure how to take that, who's "us guys"?

do I sense that you have no interest in your playing being of interest to non guitarists?

[Vihar]

The way you meant it, minus me. lol

Kind of yes, I have interest in sounding good to myself. If others like it, I'm glad they do.

[princeplanet]

right. anyway, I didn't just want to discuss louder dynamics, but broader aspects of technical development potentially as a result of exaggerated force when practicing. Someone earlier mentioned Hal Galper's idea that technique begins in the mind, you know, if you hear it you own it kinda thing. OK, I also want to add that when exaggerating force in working through a new line, pattern or concept, I'm gaining a deeper cerebral concept of the thing. Again, I remember it better! Guess it's just me then?.....

[fumblefingers]

C'mon, you can't deny that many earlier players learned on instruments with masochistic action and string tension. You had to play forcefully just to make a sound! These days many modern players choose wimpy strings and action and use a compressor to help even out their weak notes. No other instrument allows this. If that's your thing then that's fine, although too many jazz listeners I know often complain about jazz guitarists' one dimensional range of dynamic expression.

I don't know about you guys, but I worry about this. Maybe we'd sound more appealing to non guitarists if we found ways to be more dynamic ?

some good points but not entirely accurate.

1. electronic keyboards have easy action, compared to real pianos.
2. its just a guess but i'd wager the same about bass guitars vs. the acoustic bass violin.
3. i wonder if "electric" saxes make it easier on the player as well.

but i know what you mean about lack of dynamics. any players that you would care to call out?

[princeplanet]

Metheny, I hear compression, probably to even out slurs and hammers. Sometimes he sounds a note on a new string by landing on it hard enough to sound, no left hand involved. Imagine if you took out the left hand altogether and just sounded notes with the right hand. Some players almost sound like that, or seem to be aspiring to! Mind you, as far as having technique, the guy is obviously way up there in every other respect, but his tone/dynamic expression elude me. Guess I'm not a fan...

[Vihar]

right. anyway, I didn't just want to discuss louder dynamics, but broader aspects of technical development potentially as a result of exaggerated force when practicing. Someone earlier mentioned Hal Galper's idea that technique begins in the mind, you know, if you hear it you own it kinda thing. OK, I also want to add that when exaggerating force in working through a new line, pattern or concept, I'm gaining a deeper cerebral concept of the thing. Again, I remember it better! Guess it's just me then?.....

I'm sure it's not just you, it's many people. I like to play softly and strongly too, but not forcedly so. Every people has their own physical limits, so if you can get away with hard pressure and it feels good, then you're good, at least for now. That range between soft and strong is different for everyone. Someone who plays long hours a day will learn his/her limits pretty soon, so it stops being an issue anymore.

[Vihar]

Metheny, I hear compression, probably to even out slurs and hammers. Sometimes he sounds a note on a new string by landing on it hard enough to sound, no left hand involved. Imagine if you took out the left hand altogether and just sounded notes with the right hand. Some players almost sound like that, or seem to be aspiring to! Guess I'm not a fan...

As far as I know, he doesn't use compression, at least not live as a guitar effect. That mellow tone comes from the fact that he rolls off major amounts of treble on his guitar. Which kind of makes sense when you play into very clean solid state amps or the PA itself. He also plays with a pick that gives a very defined attack to the notes. That and the self resonance of a guitar pickup can make things sound harsh without any compensation, especially for the close listener i.e. the player standing next to the amp or monitor speakers.

[princeplanet]

I just wonder what some of these guys sound like raw, y'know, unplugged. I don't mean acoustic gtrs, I mean the electric gtr unpugged, what's coming off the fingers. Been practicing that way for a bit now and it's quite revealing. Makes you realise how much the amplified sound covers some weaknesses and magnifies others! What's wrong with sounding compelling unplugged, and then finding an amplified sound that renders your tone and dynamics faithfully?

Another thing, how hard you grasp the pick. Was always taught to not press too hard, but again, when I do, I seem to have more control, feels more secure with less miss hits. It's like in speaker designs where you have a high damping factor, the diaphram oscillates like a tighter spring. More efficient (movement wise, not energy wise) and more accurate. Was always taught to keep it loose and relax with both hands. I think it's BS, when I come across a difficult thing I'm trying to play, adding force and tension helps me play it cleanly. Keeping it loose- and I've tried for far too many years- just won't cut it. Again, it could just be me...

[Vihar]

Do you play with a heavy pick?