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Do you guys have a view on guys like wes and Jim Mullen
a fav of mine who play mainly downstrokes ... these are thumb players
I believe CC played mostly downstrokes too
I would love to be able to play fast alt picking a la Benson , Reg
Martino is amazing at this stuff , and I heard him say he's just lets his right hand do whatever it wants etc
but I'm afraid at 54 it's just not in me
should I persevere or just let it go
I get such speed as I have by downstrokes (pick)
and hammer-ons and pull-offs etc at the mo
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07-29-2011 08:40 AM
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there's no need to play everything in 5 positions, IMO. Two of the positions just aren't very friendly. But 3 of the CAGED fingerings are friendly (no shifts or stretches for 2 of them, 1 small shift for the other). try those first.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by pingu
you can develop your right hand at your age, and should do so! devote 10 minutes to it each day. see Gig Savers - Killer Technique, by Mel Bay for some nice drills.
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Too late, I'm well into drilling concepts into 5 positions. For the way I use them, they're all difficult! With enclosure drills, the CAGED fingerings go out the window, there's plenty of awkward stretches. The great thing about multiple positions is that they all provide unique sounds, even the same notes get phrased differently, but mostly I exploit the available differences in range, different extremities, which makes the lines come out different in each position. I was trying to get it down to 4 positions, one for each set of chord inversions, but became too confused about which one to leave out.... When you think about it, most other instruments have to learn ideas in 12 keys, but for us transposition doesn't require new fingerings, so 5 ain't so bad.... Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Learn them everywhere. Use every fingering. Learn it on the E and A strings in every shape you can find. That's what I do. I am a glutton for punishment!
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Somewhat relevant tangent about fingerings, sorry to stray a bit from the topic again...
I think there's a continuum of how comprehensive you might want to get with fingerings and positions.
With certain things I've tried fingering them in every possible position-playing-position. So, frets 1-5, frets 2-6, frets 3-7, etc, so really everything is covered as far as position playing. Metheny and Wes, among others, seem to favor a lot of shifting but keeping lines on the thinnest strings possible; they prefer that tone. So position playing goes a bit out the window in that case. With a style that utilizes lots of slides, position playing becomes a little irrelevant
Recently I've taken some lessons with a couple of the fastest jazz guitarists in my area, one a very modern player and the other more into classic, straight ahead vocabulary, both of them can burn through their vocabulary with extreme precision (no extra muted strings, no dead notes, perfect time, etc) at tempos well over 300.
Though they are both extremely different players and at different levels with a whole host of things they both shared in common the acceptance that certain fingerings can make a line remarkably easier (for both hands) than other fingerings. We all have technical idiosyncrasies, little anomalies that make certain moves tougher and some easier. If you want to play fast, the positive anomalies need to be exploited.
For me, for example, if I re-finger a line so that all the string-changing occurs on downbeats (I am primarily an alternate picker) I can pick that line sometimes literally 50% faster than in a conventional fingering. Weird but true. For some reason, I can just switch strings on a down-stroke, much, much faster than an up. Reg appears to share this anomaly - there's a very fast sequence he does often that usually consists of four notes on one string and two on another, or some variant, alternate picking throughout so the string-changing occurs on down-strokes.
So some of the best advice I got from one of those lessons was that, if speed is the goal, it actually makes sense to learn vocabulary not in as many fingerings as possible but in the absolute most efficient, easiest fingerings (again, easiest for both hands combined). Seems counter intuitive because we are supposed to be versatile fretboard masters, but I guess this is about facing the reality of how difficult it is to cleanly play 8th note based jazz vocabulary on guitar at 300 bpm.
Like Reg said there are very few guitarists that can actually cleanly handle the 8ths at 300+ stuff. And I think the ones that can do it are playing a lot of pre-organized vocabularly.
A couple more things:
Personally, I really don't believe in fretboard positions or shapes for scales or keys once you get to a certain point with jazz vocabulary. There simply are lines, melodic devices and directions - ideas - and we need to know the best way to finger those ideas. Because when we solo we play vocabulary and melodies, not scales or arpeggios.
Another big thing I got from those lessons is that when learning a lick or idea, instead of thinking about it in 12 keys and all positions, it makes sense to just cover all string sets. By thinking of it that way, the fingering and right hand configuration for the line can stay similar and then playing it in different keys is just an issue of going up or down the neck. But bear in mind this is just talking about the issue of how to get that snippet of vocabulary from 200+ up to 300+. I think a more comprehensive approach is somewhat essential to get a "beginner" playing mid tempo swing lines.
Forgive my rambling. All things that have been on my mind in the past year.
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Great post Jake. Actually, I think I agree that certain "one off" lines should just be mastered in the one position as some of the ones I know can't be played any where else. I guess that I just wanna feel like I can play all my embellished arps, enclosures, sequences and patterns etc wherever I am on the neck to provide the "glue" for all the position specific vocab. It's just the way I see it at this stage, maybe it'll change...
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Thanks PP, I'm glad I didn't type all that out just for myself. Originally Posted by princeplanet
About playing everything everywhere at any tempo - I don't think it's possible. We can get closer and closer every day but every single guitarist I've heard of who can handle fast tempos well has some specific bag of tricks, to put it crudely, that he or she sticks to.
Also consider this strange but practical perspective:
You are playing a solo, you play a line that ends on the 5th fret of the D string using the middle finger. You hear something in your head that you want to play from there, but because of the position you are in, you are going to have to use a fingering for this line that will be awkward and hard to pull off at the tempo of this tune. It would be a great line...would sound great.
But also, you have a few ideas of lines starting at this position - not your first choice musically or melodically - that you know you can actually execute at this tempo.
This far my point should be obvious, but I think I think this practicality is a bit elusive because our perspective seems to always be geared towards being versatile and 'mastering the fretboard' - being able to play everything in every way, and not just relying on what's easiest for us.
Often the goal of part of an uptempo solo is to fill space (doesn't have to be that way, but that seems to be what we're talking about.) So we make compromises to fill that space.
Because really...how many guitarists are there who make this checklist when playing at 300bpm:
-plays 8th notes cleanly
-plays a variety of rhythmic material
-can vary accents (either all picking, or all legato)
-doesn't repeat him/herself
-can play both classic bop type of lines as well as cover more modern approaches
I mean we get to a point where we just have to look at that very real wall and focus on something less comprehensive. That's where I am, at least. I've just come to realize that if I want to burn at faster tempos, I have to do so with a more limited vocabulary. I play a lot of shit at mid tempos, I really try to mix it up with accents and intervals, and I like the sound I get from alternate picking all of that...it was silly how long it has taken me to realize how incredibly difficult it is to play 'my' vocabulary at very fast tempos. It's just too much...I, personally, have to simplify and limit myself, at least to start.
Anyway, the other thing I like pull out every now and again in these threads, just for good measure...at fast tempos, we don't have to play 8th notes to keep the energy up.
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Agreed. But that never stop's me from learning everything everywhere. Some positions are better than others for certain things. But awareness, for me, is key. I always practice lines in 3 or 4 places. especially heads. Phrasing, as mentioned earlier, is a different bag of tricks in certain fingerings as well.About playing everything everywhere at any tempo - I don't think it's possible. We can get closer and closer every day but every single guitarist I've heard of who can handle fast tempos well has some specific bag of tricks, to put it crudely, that he or she sticks to.
If one's goal is to play everything at 300 bpm, then brevity and efficiency is a must.
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I'm certainly not advocating fretboard ignorance. We all need to be aware of where everything is, play anything in any position or any configuration, vertical, horizontal, diagonal.
If a player doesn't have that together, I think it would be important he or she, well, gets that together.
Steps along a path. After there's reasonably competency with that, and the goal becomes getting familiar vocabulary at unfamiliar tempos, well, that leads me to the conclusions in my previous two posts.
But more on your train on thought, some different ways to practice a line:
all 12 possible positions spanning five frets
on one individual string, or one pairs of strings, or, three strings (moving up and down the neck)
on two non adjacent strings...
on and on it can go, hence my initial point about a continuum of comprehensiveness.
Being more concrete, I'd argue that being aware of 3 or 4 places for each line is essential to internalize the actual vocabulary of the line. But again, my posts haven't been about internalizing new vocabulary, I'm speaking of familiarizing oneself with a vocabulary that can be improvised at fast tempos.
It's just a different bag. Steps on a path.
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Nice rambling Jake... some good points, well said....(both posts) I've gone through different stages. When I was young player... I had way more chops than I have now and I wouldn't touch a blues feel rhythmically or harmonically with a ten foot pole... I totally got off on symmetrical, pentatonic or anything but what was implied.( and I was aware of what was implied) I loved playing two or three levels of understanding beyond what the changes or melody implied. The problem was as good as I was at playing in that style... very few could take too much... too much work to listen to, got old quick...Was great fun to play, and there were some great and very impressive moments... but I don't believe I was helping evangelize the gospel of jazz... I know that's a very different subject... But Hank Mobley... didn't have the greatest chops... but he could preach jazz. He could express all that he had to say... and we as listeners could hear and understand or feel what he had to say. Sorry for religious analogies, it just sounds cool... my point is very simple... Have a reason(s) why your advancing your technique to a certain level. It also takes a lifetime to learn to express yourself through music... get out what you have to say. It doesn't simply happen because you have great technique...
Getting back to technique... there's nothing like posting examples of what we consider good technique... not others, our own. These types of Forums are an incredible opportunity to give and get feedback from other guitarist, all over. Without the pressures of actual performance etc... Hell... I wish this would have been around when I was young... best Reg
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Great points Reg. Yeah, I find myself going many implied layers deep. Just where my head is at since I have been out of the game so long. But ya know, I was doing some deep improv the other day. I think on Misty of all things. I noticed what you were saying about getting old really quick and a lot of work for the listener as well. So I reigned it in and played closer to the style without it being vanilla. It was much easier being melodic and my wife said, Is that Misty? LOL. So there is much truth to that. On the other hand I still need to prove myself, to myself. Make sense? I am sure it will pass in time.
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Wow would you practice say Donna Lee in 3 or four places ?
I always practice lines in 3 or 4 places. especially heads. Phrasing,
as mentioned earlier, is a different bag of tricks in certain fingerings as
well.
I got some catching up to do !
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I find that I play things where they phrase as I hear them, or at least as natural as I can pull it off. Difficult fingerings are very difficult to articulate.
Thinking about it more, I don't even think about position, I pretty much just play what I hear... as close as I'm able. Sometimes I start playing with fingerings or positions to see what comes out, something that might happen accidentally, I really don't worry about making "mistakes", anyway from that I usually take control and go. This is obviously playing live... I don't really practice, I listen all the time, and usually if I remember have no problem creating on the spot.
Every time I read through Donna Lee, it seems I'm not in position, I just played it the other night, with this B-3 trio, was burnnin, cool drummer only 21 and could hang... So yea I play it in way to many positions. I don't play the tune enough to memorize... That's one of the outcomes of reading well... your hands pretty much stay in position... I obviously recognize melodic passages and instinctively move to positions... right or wrong. Great topic... fun to think about... thanks Reg
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My feelings on the issue is that you have to know how to do it in as many positions as possible, but if you need to perform it tonight (at tempo, obviously) you need to know just one position. Originally Posted by pingu
There's a difference between awareness, as was said, vs performance.
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OK, maybe there needs to be a distinction, for the purpose of this discussion, between lines and vocab/patterns. Some long lines move through many positions and are therefore difficult/impossible/pointless when duplicating them in 5 positions. But smaller chunks of language as well as all patterns, enclosure groups etc really should be under the fingers wherever one is on the fingerboard in any key, no?
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Octave displacement is your friend. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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you saying to make every line playable by transposing chunks up an octave? That can be cool sometimes, but other times it kinda ruins the integrity of certain lines not to mention leaves you with some awkward leaps....
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Edit: I didn't write anything controversial here, but it was late and I think I can articulate myself better than I did, so...
Last edited by JakeAcci; 07-31-2011 at 08:21 AM.
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