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currently 1.14mm. why?
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07-24-2011 02:09 PM
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Cause when you said you find it difficult to play good with a loose approach, I imagined your pick getting stuck in the strings. Django and his followers play with very thick picks with absolutely no flex, so it has to be the pick holding fingers to allow some movement and not get caught in the high tension strings.
That 1.14mm one is still a bit flexible, but a 3.5mm Wegen wouldn't be.
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also, it seems standard gypsy technique demanded every note be played apoyando, no? Ie, rest stroke--as opposed to tirando (free stroke)?
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wow, that's thick! maybe I should try it.
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Yes, I was making that point earlier. Everyone is different. But good technique is a must, regardless. Playing hard all the time does not lend itself to longevity.
Originally Posted by Vihar
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I always practice this way. I never plug into my amp unless I am recording.I just wonder what some of these guys sound like raw, y'know, unplugged. I don't mean acoustic gtrs, I mean the electric gtr unpugged, what's coming off the fingers. Been practicing that way for a bit now and it's quite revealing. Makes you realise how much the amplified sound covers some weaknesses and magnifies others! What's wrong with sounding compelling unplugged, and then finding an amplified sound that renders your tone and dynamics faithfully?
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07-24-2011, 04:46 PM #33destinytot Guest"Ike Isaacs: I thought to myself, 'George has got a low action because he plays easy on the first two strings'. But then I think you've got strong hands. Originally Posted by princeplanet
George Benson: Yeah, but what happens is, I get a very staccato-ey sound because I have to be very conscious to make my hand press hard and if I don't pay any attention to that, my playing becomes very 'plucky' - too percussive." George Benson in conversation with Ike Isaacs and George Adie, p.21 Vol. 2 No. 10 May 1974 Guitar PM for scan of full interview
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Not sure what to take home from that quote Originally Posted by destinytot
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it sounds like he meant " if i don't pay attention to pressing hard enough, my playing is too staccato, and not legato enough".
but that isn't what he said exactly.
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pressing the left hand harder sounds more legato to George? Interesting, I think I dig it, pressing harder as well as leaving each finger on a little longer on each note seems to help phrasing sound more fluid.... some may disagree
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07-25-2011, 05:15 PM #37destinytot GuestIMHO, Benson was being too hard on himself about the "staccato-ey" sound. Tuck Andress (his last sentence especially): Tuck & Patti: Staccato: Learning from Animals Originally Posted by princeplanet
Not sure what to take home from that quote
I'm new to sites like this, and I'd just like to say...this is just what I was hoping for. Very inspiring stuff. Greetings, thanks and best wishes to all here.
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I play very hard or percussive most of the time, depends on gigs. I'm on my second Guild Artist Award and I'm about ready for new frets... 3rd time and it's only a 94. Part of the ware is I play so much, but a lot of it is my very percussive style of playing. I have no pains, never have and sometimes play four hours of shred five nights a week. My finger tips ware out once in a while...so I don't practice that much anymore, don't have the time.
What is good technique.... least amount of ware and tear on our body... least amount of movement. To me good technique is when someone looks and sounds as though their playing effortlessly...I have fairly good technique... good hand position!!!, least amount of movement, all fingers are used etc... but many times you play with more movement to get a certain sound. I like to have a little bounce with some styles of soloing and even when comping, especially when locking in grooves or when a specific rhythmic feel is needed.
Once in a while I'll break out one of my solid or simi-solid body guitars and cover the fusion thing... I did that back in the 70's too much. JM thing etc... great thread and input, what was the point... Reg
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Who would disagree? Isn't that the premise behind, say, practicing picking 4 consecutive frets, using two different approaches?
1. First approach, lift pressure on prior note simultaneously while placing press on next note? Staccato.
2. More legato approach--first PLANT all the left hand fingers (1-4) above the frets, very closely, play each note successively while keeping the prior note down, so when you play the 4th note, all four fingers will remain on the fretboard. Going backwards, just lift one finger at a time. Until you've played all the notes and all of the fingers have been removed.
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yeah, but maybe folks disagree about the pressing hard part. Seems like it's wasted energy, but if it feels good, and sounds good?........
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Do what is right for YOU. Everyone is different. I just think people were giving you a heads up on beating yourself up to much. I play both legato and staccato. Different sounds require different technique. For me getting a good staccato sound involves a firm grip and tight movement and good right hand muting depending on the sound I am going for. Reg was right on when he said, "Good technique is when people look like they are playing effortlessly". Trial and error is the greatest teacher. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 07-26-2011 at 02:00 AM.
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Yea... the right hand muting is extremely important. I play with very high action... personal choice, so if I don't press simi hard, I'll not get the full sound of the note. But it also gives me options of the sound I do get by how hard or how much of the note I want to come out. Obviously the tempo has influence also. Why don't you post something so we really know what we're talking about...Reg
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"Pressing hard" is asking for trouble. "Velocity" is what you need here. I posted this on another thread but I think you might do well by this exercise; it's great for building up strength without causing injury: Originally Posted by princeplanet
Try this on an acoustic guitar. Scale: F major. Position: I. Keep fretting hand as relaxed as possible. Play the first note (F) with pick or finger. Continue up the scale but use fretting hand only. Obviously you have to hammer-on to sound each note. Go very slow. Listen carefully to each note. How much strength can you generate by using fretting fingers only? Hint: if you can hear each finger make a tapping sound on the wood of the fingerboard, you're on the right track--it means you are applying the right amount of pressure to get a clear note. (Using an acoustic guitar is best.) Think of each finger as walking. This part is very important: When you fret the note, leave your finger down and don't lift until absolutely necessary. (Try in Bb and Eb in same position.) No short cuts. But over time the rewards are big.
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I think Reg uses some piece of foam or something to mute at the first fret, doesn't he? Sorry, too lazy to check the videos right now. Originally Posted by Richb
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Hey Rich... how goes... Originally Posted by Richb
I mute with both hands when needed, as needed. I don't play stadiums, so it's not really a problem. I do play lots of outdoor jazz festivals, very loud... but not on stage. And obviously I don't play like Jimi... right in front of my amp. One of the reasons I've played Artist Awards for many years is just that reason... they don't feed back much. The bartolini pick-up is also much better than most. And as Jake said... I do keep a piece of felt tucked under my strings at 1st fret. I started doing that along with stuffing the body... back when I was playing in way to many Big Bands... there incredible loud... I also have way to many other guitars, solid and simi solid etc... for louder fusion junk... more so in the 70's and 80's... not that many gigs for that style anymore... unless you want to rock.... I don't .
Thanks Reg
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Hey Rich... Yea I was picking in similar style in late 60's. I didn't study with anyone on guitar... took all my proficiencies up front and was a composition maj. Did study piano with James Williams, and drums with Alan Dawson. I was there in 74,5,6,7 and graduated in 78... so you know. Pat, Mick, Al, Swallow, Burton, Steve smith...shit all kind of great player went through...
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No lessons, I really didn't dig his playing back then, I saw him with Jaco in Cambridge at some pub... can't remember who else, but first time I started to dig his approach...The best teachers... Michael Gibbs and Herb Pomeroy, at least, open my eyes... I was a gigging musician, played well could read etc... just was young and stupid...ops...Naive...Reg
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OK, so back to ideas about advancing certain aspects of technique. Another thing that seemed to work for me is focusing on my left hand. For example, take a complex 32 note line that you wish to learn in 5 positions. Like many people, the tendency for me is to obsess over what the right hand is doing so I can memorize all the different fingerings, but it's amazing how you don't actually need to look at your fingers when tackling a new idea, you can visualize what you're meant to be doing soon enough, which frees up your eyes to look at something else. How about the left hand?
It's also amazing how you don't realize what your left hand is doing until you really focus on it's habits while learning new ideas. It can't be trusted to be 100% efficient. But with visual feedback, you correct anomalies pretty quickly. Better accuracy, repeatability, economy as well as being aware of options to try alternative methods of negotiating challenging parts.
So back to the 32 8th note line in 5 positions. Set the metronome at half the goal tempo, use double force with both hands while focusing intently on improving left hand efficiency. Pick the way that will work at full tempo. Repeat the line dozens of times, just burn it into muscle memory. After a rest, try it at full tempo (300 bpm anyone?) and see if it happens....
I know, guitar technique is such an individual thing that what works for me may not work for others, but just wanted to put it out there for discussion owing to the fact that these things are rarely discussed, or are they? What works for you guys?
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Hey Prince...sorry for BS... Yea, what's the measurement for good technique...I'm from school that you can fake your way through simple material and still sound great, with any technique... It's when you beging trying to cover difficult material that that you can tell whether your technique is GOOD or BAD. I mean the music is what we're after... not drills, finger studies etc... It's fairly simple to logically discuss the mechanics, least amount of movement, best hand position, obviously individual dexterity of all moving parts. I don't believe the mechanics are an individual thing to beginning with, we... through our personal likes , dislikes and how we train ourselves ... make it individual. At least for the sake of discussion, generally you don't design for the exceptions. I like your example of how to teach, somewhat trial and error method of creating good technique... It's always worked for me. The only difference is I would design or create best fingering(s) and then practice at full tempo, I'm not a fan of teaching myself to play slower versions of, it's different technique. If I could feel at tempo, even if I was trashing the line, I knew it would only be a short amount of time before I could effortlessly play...
On another note, there are styles of music where I finger things, basically wrong, just to help create that style of feel... which when fingered or picked correctly, well it's just to much work to articulate to fit style. So I'm making a concerted effort to play with bad technique, or I should say... not the most efficient....
One other detail... not many guitarist can cover complex 8th note lines at 300 in any position, and in five positions... you might be raising the bar a little high... Still great goal... best Reg
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Interesting thoughts Reg, and yeah, it's ultimately about the music, but the music I always hear in my head is much faster and more complex than I'm able to play. (I listen to way too much horn based hard bop.... ). I just wanna have the technique I need to do the speed thing and get it over with. The real hard stuff for me follows, ie, how to play great slow and med tempo ideas, you know invent melodic themes on the fly and spin variations like Wes or Mobley, Clifford etc... I'm hoping that Hal Galper is right when he says that technique starts in the brain, ie, ya gotta hear faster to play faster. Just hope that by learning to hear fast, I can still learn to hear slow, if ya know what I mean.
Interesting that you feel practicing slow is a different technique that doesn't help you play fast. My brain doesn't work like that I don't think, If I try to play something fast and it's sloppy, it stays sloppy. Slowing it down irons out the bugs for me that's for sure.
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