Sitting/Standing guitar position frustration. Help!

[JakeAcci]

There has to be some solution to this frustrating dilemma.

Some background, sorry for the length:

I had some nerve/joint issues a few years ago that lasted quite a while. I had to take a break from playing jazz guitar, and then later I had to just take a break from guitar in total to let things heal and figure out a course of action.

Things are pretty great now. I definitely still get some problems every now and again (definitely if I overplay) but I mostly can play a lot without too many problems.

One of the things that really helped me get back into playing pain-free was to pay meticulous attention to my technique. I totally changed the way I use both hands and I pay a lot of attention to my posture and just my body in general when I play guitar.

The problem I've been having lately is that the guitars themselves aren't doing what I want them to be doing.

I like to sit in a somewhat classical position with a footstool. There are a few reasons for this:

1. I try to basically have classical left hand technique...thumb on the back, angled guitar neck. This is much less of a strain on my left hand and it allows me to do stretches with a lot more comfort.

2. I bought my first archtop within the past year (a DeArmond X150) not realizing at the time that the size of the body is just a little bit too big for me. (I'm a somewhat small guy.) To sit in normal "folk" position with this guitar I have to elevate my right shoulder to get into a good picking position, also on normal non-classical sitting position my ulnar nerve of my right arm presses against the lower bout of the archtop, which, for my condition, is a big no-no. Sitting in classical position eliminates these problems.

But then there are a few problems with me sitting in classical position with this guitar:

1. To do it for a while without breaks hurts my back.

2. To get the neck at a good angle in 'classical' position I have to sort of tuck my right leg under the chair, or do something strange and awkward with my right foot. This in itself doesn't immediately cause any big problems, but since I try to pay close attention to alignment and everything, I'd imagine playing guitar with my legs in this strange position for five hours a day for thirty years could cause some problems.

3. I can't avoid having to play standing up sometimes. I've grown accustomed to the guitar being at this nice angle, so then playing standing up, with a strap, feels awkward for a variety of reasons. I have to reach my right arm far around the guitar to pick and I have the same problems while standing as when sitting in 'folk' position - elevated right shoulder, ulnar nerve pushing against the guitar. It's a lot more difficult to play but I don't know if I can pull off carrying a chair and a footstool with me wherever I go.

I have an Ibanez artist solid body from '76. It's a cool little guitar, and I can sit with it in folk position with both feet flat on the floor and be in a somewhat comfortable playing position. Because of all the problems I've stated that I've been having with positioning my archtop, I was considering switching to the solid body as my main axe. But - and I have NO idea why - when I put a strap on this guitar, the guitar tilts to the ground HARD from the neck side, which is the exact opposite of what I want. It does this whether I'm standing or sitting.

What the hell should I do? Get a smaller archtop? Are there special guitar straps that could help me out here?

I know most of you probably don't have to pay such close attention, but I need to play it safe here because even a little bit of playing in a "wrong" position causes problems for me.

[cmajor9]

Sorry to hear of your troubles, back pain is no fun!

I also prefer to play in a more-or-less classical position. I find that, even when sitting, its better if I use a strap - I can adjust the position of the guitar regardless of the position of my left knee, etc, and not worry about a footstool. I understand what you mean about contorting your right foot; I found myself doing this unconciously and having tension in my right side, so set about retraining myself.

If you use a strap when sitting, does it help or do you still have the issue with your right foot? Can you adjust the strap so the guitar sits a bit higher?

When standing, is the problem because the guitar is hanging more 'free,' or maybe is the balance of the neck such that the neck falls lower?

[ronjazz]

You MUST acquire a smaller guitar, even as small as 15" across the lower bout. Classical guitars are only 14.5". You might also go for a 24.75" scale length rather than 25.5". Try something like a Samick Royale or a Gibson ES 339, or an Ibanez George Benson model.

[hot ford coupe]

I've got a problem similar to yours. Standing was never comfortable for me except when I played electric bass so that's out. I used to play sitting without a strap, leaning over the guitar like Barney Kessel did. After a while, I started to have problems in my left wrist and leaning over the guitar was causing back problems. Here's how I solved said problems.

Now I generally sit, using a strap with the guitar in between classical and "folk position. The treble side lower bout is resting abaout 6 inches or so behind my knee. Look at a picture of Les Paul or Joe Pass. This position allows me to sit back with the guitar neck at a larger angle to the horizontal (neck higher up). This allows my wrist to be completely straight taking care of the wrist problem. The guitar is also lying flatter which takes the pressure off my right arm and allows me to drop the shoulder. The only disadvantage playing like this is if I go into a guitar store, I can't try out an instrument without a strap.

[JakeAcci]

Thanks for the responses so far everybody!

Sorry to hear of your troubles, back pain is no fun!

I also prefer to play in a more-or-less classical position. I find that, even when sitting, its better if I use a strap - I can adjust the position of the guitar regardless of the position of my left knee, etc, and not worry about a footstool. I understand what you mean about contorting your right foot; I found myself doing this unconciously and having tension in my right side, so set about retraining myself.

I'm not sure I understand - you sit "classical" position but without a footstool?

Does that mean you have to lean your torso pretty far forward?

If you use a strap when sitting, does it help or do you still have the issue with your right foot? Can you adjust the strap so the guitar sits a bit higher?

I do use a strap when sitting and unfortunately it doesn't help the issues that much.

When standing, is the problem because the guitar is hanging more 'free,' or maybe is the balance of the neck such that the neck falls lower?

So for clarity's sake, I'll make it clear that now (this paragraph) we are talking about the solid body, not the archtop. I don't know why the neck falls lower, I mean, it must be a balance thing, the weight of the different parts of the guitar, but I don't get why anybody would build a guitar that way!

I tried a little googling for a special strap that might help but came up dry. Don't electric bass players sometimes play with special straps that hold the guitar up high?

[JakeAcci]

Now I generally sit, using a strap with the guitar in between classical and "folk position. The treble side lower bout is resting abaout 6 inches or so behind my knee.

Which knee, right or left?

[hot ford coupe]

Which knee, right or left?

The treble side lower bout is resting on my right leg about 6 inches above the knee. The bass upper bout is resting on my right pectoral muscle. My right shoulder is down and my right forearm is horizontal. I'm also not using the guitar in the picture. My current axe is about 3/4 inches narrower. The back doesn't touch my stomach and is free to vibrate. I hold the guitar similar to what's in the picture. I don't really look like that normally, I was clowning for the camera.


The most important thing is that neck angle. I can keep my wrist relatively straight without bending over the guitar. Let me know if you need more help.

[JakeAcci]

The treble side lower bout is resting on my right leg about 6 inches above the knee. The bass upper bout is resting on my right pectoral muscle. My right shoulder is down and my right forearm is horizontal. I'm also not using the guitar in the picture. My current axe is about 3/4 inches narrower. The back doesn't touch my stomach and is free to vibrate. I hold the guitar similar to what's in the picture. I don't really look like that normally, I was clowning for the camera.


The most important thing is that neck angle. I can keep my wrist relatively straight without bending over the guitar. Let me know if you need more help.

HFC thanks very much. I just experimented with your position and I'll give it a shot. I'll have to play with it for a few days to see how it goes. I think some of your description doesn't apply to me because I'm probably a bit shorter than you - I'm about 5'8.5".

One thing I know I'll have to figure out how to work around is still avoiding having my right ulnar nerve pressing against the guitar.

When sitting with a strap, a guitar is always in part resting its weight on the player's legs and in part hanging its weight from the players back via the strap. In your position, the balance seems to be leaning more towards the back. We'll see how that goes.

Anybody else have any ideas?

I'm also still baffled about the solid body - the guitar sounds pretty good through my polytone, it might be fun to take it to a jam session but I'd have to spend 50% of my concentration just holding the guitar in place!

[NSJ]

I'm 6'3", and play only sitting down, often with the footstool and a comfortable strap.

I can tell you that a small, easy to play guitar like a ES-339 (cheaper and often better version is a Heritage Prospect STD--can often be had for under a grand) makes a huge difference. Particularly when pain arises.

[Extrapolation]

I've dealt with tendonitis and, after a long break from guitar, also had to rethink my sitting/standing playing position. The classical position I agree is the best for many reasons, although I found that when I used a footstool this caused a lot of back pain and gluteal pain on the left side (side was using the footstool).

I've found a solution that works for me, perhaps you can give it a try and see how it works out: I ditched the footstool and play both sitting and standing with a strap. Rather than the guitar sitting on the left thigh, the body essentially sits in between both legs. I adjusted my strap so the guitar sits high, which for me is most comfortable. The neck is angled as in classical position, and your ulnar nerve should be free of any pressure. This position allows you to have a classical position without having to rest the guitar on your left leg (in my opinion this is more comfortable for both my fretting and picking hands, as well as my back, than using a footstool and resting the guitar on the leg). The great thing about this that your sitting and standing positions are exactly the same, so there is no awkward readjusting.

The main problem with this of course is tightness/discomfort during long sessions on your shoulder area where the strap sits; you can however negate this with proper stretches, breaks, and especially messing around with the strap position until there is almost no pressure on your shoulder. Stretching your entire body before practicing is essential no matter what position, though I'm sure you know this already. Hopefully some of this will help you out, I can relate to the frustration.

[jazzbow]

How about the Freddie Green style?

It looks like the guitar is lying at a shallow angle on a left leg crossed over right knee, but the right fore arm seems flat. This would be ideal for rhythm but problematic for single note runs.



















He 'aint changed position in all those years!

Hope this helps,

[JensL]

Hey Jake,

Did you try one of these cushions instead of the footstool. Most classical players I know use that to save their back.
classical guitar product reviews.

Jens

[hot ford coupe]

I'm probably a bit shorter than you - I'm about 5'8.5".

You're actually a bit taller than I am. I'm only 5'6"". To be honest with you, the guitar is balanced about 50/50 between the strap and my back. When I'm sitting down, I'm sitting pretty straight. I'm pressed against the back of my chair (I carry a folding chair with me) and that holds the strap tight against the chair so I don't have that annoying weight on my left shoulder.

As far as your ulnar nerve problem, the only thing I can think of is have some kind of pad on your forearm that spreads the pressure over a wider area which will cut down the total pressure on the nerve itself. Hope that helps.

[TommyD]

Your ulnar nerve is not in a position where it could come in contact with the guitar with your picking-arm draped over the body. The ulnar nerve crosses the elbow in a notch at the back of the elbow next to the "knob".
T/

[hot ford coupe]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lnar_nerve.JPG

Sorry Tommy but I'm going to have to disagree with you. True, the ulnar nerve runs behind the elbow but it travels down from there on the inner aspect of the arm on the way to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Above is a picture of the ulnar nerve as it comes down the humerus and enters the cubital canal. This is where a lot of problems come from. If the inner aspect of the elbow where the canal is located is resting against the guitar especially directly over the edge, the ulnar nerve is put under compression within the canal. The condition is similar to carpal tunnel syndrome but up by the elbowl Now, I don't know the extent of Jake's problem or the full diagnosis of his problem but this is the first thing that comes to my mind. Check out the picture and you'll see what I mean.

[TommyD]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lnar_nerve.JPG

Sorry Tommy but I'm going to have to disagree with you. True, the ulnar nerve runs behind the elbow but it travels down from there on the inner aspect of the arm on the way to the 3rd and 4th fingers. Above is a picture of the ulnar nerve as it comes down the humerus and enters the cubital canal. This is where a lot of problems come from. If the inner aspect of the elbow where the canal is located is resting against the guitar especially directly over the edge, the ulnar nerve is put under compression within the canal. The condition is similar to carpal tunnel syndrome but up by the elbowl Now, I don't know the extent of Jake's problem or the full diagnosis of his problem but this is the first thing that comes to my mind. Check out the picture and you'll see what I mean.

Of course you're exactly right, Hot, but my understanding is that once the nerve passes the elbow and descends the forearm, resting it against the guitar is not irritating to the nerve. The nerve itself should not be touching the instrument at the olecranon notch area. The olecranon notch however, has problems of its own. Gradual anatomical alteration of the notch due to disease or injury will often compress the nerve with different arm positions (which can manifest itself as tingling and numbness - paresthesias - in the lateral hand and fingers 4 and 5)
Th cubital canal itself is another, similar trouble spot, and problems there will cause similar hand symptoms. I guess we should all switch to saxophone.
Tommy/

[JakeAcci]

Just want to say I've been busy practicing, getting ready for a gig, and other misc. but I really appreciate all the responses so far and have been reading them, and will try out suggestions. I'll respond to all points and suggestions in more detail soon. Continuing thanks...

-Jake

[hot ford coupe]

I hope I've been of some help. The alternative of giving up the guitar is not an option on any level. Disability didn't stop Django after the burns, it didn't stop Lep Paul after he destroyed his right elbow and it won't stop you.

[JakeAcci]

oh sure. you know what would be ideal? Some sort of stand that just held the guitar in place for me in perfect playing position! Surely somebody makes that, right? I can play fine, without problems, it's holding the damn thing that gets tiring!

[coolvinny]

oh sure. you know what would be ideal? Some sort of stand that just held the guitar in place for me in perfect playing position! Surely somebody makes that, right? I can play fine, without problems, it's holding the damn thing that gets tiring!

Buy a "Neck Up". I bought the "mini" version for my solid body guitar, to help me with issues in my left wrist, and it works like a charm. I took a classical guitar course at a university a few years back (to force myself to sight read) and the instructor used one in his classical guitar. It's inexpensive enough to be worth a shot if you're dealing with injury issues. My guess is that you'll love it.

[TommyD]

I hope I've been of some help. The alternative of giving up the guitar is not an option on any level. Disability didn't stop Django after the burns, it didn't stop Lep Paul after he destroyed his right elbow and it won't stop you.

Indeed! Nor did an auto accident which injured Bream's left hand stop him!
T/

[hot ford coupe]

Indeed! Nor did an auto accident which injured Bream's left hand stop him!
T/

I didn't know about that one. I'm glad to see he got over it, too.

Hey Jake, I had one of those stands when I had a lot of trouble with my back. Unfortunatley, I don't remember what the brand name was but it was an ideal solution for me. I just reached forward and leaned the guitar and stand back against me and it worked extremely well. I gave the stand to my son who's touring now and it really helps him go from guitar to guitar to piano with little effort. The stand swivels in a number of directions so whatever position you need is attainable.

[TommyD]

A Dynarette cushion is supposed to work wonders for back pain sufferers.
Tommy/

[hot ford coupe]

Thanks Tommy. I'll look into that.

[TommyD]

Thanks Tommy. I'll look into that.

I have to say though, that my best solution, and what I use myself, is a guitar strap. All you need is a nice big strap button on the heel of the guitar. I attach the other end to the fret board by means of a Planet Waves Quick release system;
Amazon.com: Planet Waves Acoustic Guitar Quick-Release System: Musical Instruments
Then you can sit or stand with both feet on the floor and adjust the fret board where you like it.

Tommy/