The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I chanced upon an old copy of Renard Hoover’s Right Hand Development for Jazz Guitar. This book is so devoted to the right hand, all the exercises (-at least, all I’ve seen so far) are played on open strings, so the left hand does nothing, period.

    Two axioms guide Hoover’s approach:
    1) The pick moves flat across the strings (-no slicing)
    2) The shorter the stroke (distance) the pick travels, the better.

    I doubt anyone quibbles with the second axiom, but I’ve seen a lot of players angle their picks, thus “slicing.” For example, In a YouTube video I saw, Jimmy Bruno recommend this. (Admittedly, that video was a few years old and Mr. Bruno may have changed his views on that. Members of his Institute might want to chime in here.)

    Hoover does not want the pick to rest on a string before striking it. He wants the player’s hand suspended above the guitar with no finger touching the body anywhere. He wants the downstroke initiated with the “collapse” of the thumb joint and the upstroke with its “arching.”

    Now, I know nothing about this guy. (He may be dead for all I know; the book looks to be at least 30 years old. The page of copyright info is missing.) I haven’t heard him play, or anyone who studied with him. He may be a crackpot. He may have a good idea. I figure I’ll give his exercises a week and see what happens. I don’t expect miracles, but a sense that my playing is less “slicy” (-with no horrendous side effects) would be worth a few hours of effort. (I'm experimenting with different picks and the sound that results from slicing--especially when comping--bothers me all the sudden.) Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    That said, there’s this great place (-JGF) and I’m throwing this out in case someone has worked with this (or similar) material and has anything to say about it.

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  3. #2

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    I had trouble with a "flat" pick technique in that I couldn't get past 16th notes at 120bpm. I have recently changed to a Benson grip (which Reg who posts on this site also uses). I also prefer the tone of an angled pick.

    Benson, Di Meola, Mclaughlin, Paul Gilbert are few that use an angled pick attack. Look at players on youtube that play fast and relaxed with good tone, you'll find many of them use an angled pick attack. I think that unknown author is off base writing that an angled pick attack is a bad approach.

    There are a number of reasons why I think angled is better, but I'll defer to the virtuoso Tuck Andress who has written a very comprehensive analysis of picking technique:

    Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques
    Last edited by fep; 03-25-2011 at 06:54 PM.

  4. #3

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    When I was recovering from tendinitis, I was extremely set in my method of picking; right hand floating, no anchoring. It definitely helped me up to a point. Being mindful of how I was picking opened the door to my understanding of what's comfortable and what's not.

    A couple of months ago I started to adopt "if it feels good and sounds good, then it is good". I have been much more liberal with my use of the pick and TBH, I feel like I have much more authority in my picking now that I am semi-anchoring my right hand. For me at least, I can put a lot more power into my pick attacks when anchoring and picking from my wrist as opposed to picking from my elbow joint and floating. In comparison, picking from my elbow gives no life to the string. Besides, when I am jamming with others and not thinking technique, my right hand tends to pick from the wrist naturally.

    I am more open to constantly modifying my technique now, but I think I have found something that makes me feel good when playing. I don't doubt that your book isn't good, but I would let it be the end all.

    I have a ton of technique resources, but I said the hell with it and starting getting picking exercises from Paul Gilbert's "Intense Rock". The topic is picking and his videos are really entertaining.

    But the most important thing my last teacher told me was something along the lines of:

    "Wes, Pat, Benson, Mclaughlin, etc . . . . weren't picking the way they were because it was the "correct" way to do it. They were doing it the way that felt most comfortable to them."

    I'll use Wes as a testament.

    Let us know how it works out.
    Last edited by Silence; 03-25-2011 at 07:19 PM.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Benson, Di Meola, Mclaughlin, Paul Gilbert are few that use an angled pick attack. Look at players on youtube that play fast and relaxed with good tone, you'll find many of them use an angled pick attack. I think that unknown author is off base writing that an angled pick attack is a bad approach.]
    Yeah, I'm familiar with that. I get the idea that angled is faster. I tried that. I still do some of that. But I've noticed that in my own playing, the angled stroke--especially with chords--sounds thin to me. It was my dissatisfaction with that sound that made me look at going back to, well, "flat" picking. (Beyond that, I'm open to new things. If they don't work, they don't work, but if they do and I avoid them, I'm missing something that could help me. If I fart around with this for 10-20 hours and give it a thumbs down, I won't feel that I've wasted my time but rather that I gave something a go and it didn't work out; that's life and I'm up for it.)

    The author doesn't use the phrase "finger motion" but that is what he is talking about. (I think it's also been called "circle picking.") I see his point in this sense: when all the motion is coming from your fingers (-the thumb and index), the pick doesn't move as far as it does when you move the hand with your wrist. It's a lot more efficient to move the pick a fraction of an inch than to move the hand that holds the pick.

    I'm not sure this is practical for all of one's playing, though. (There's nothing in the book about chords or comping. All the exercises are played on open strings and boy are there a lot of exercises. This *post* may contain more words than the whole of Hoover's book.)

    I am NOT NOT NOT arguing against the angled approach or saying it's bad or that the people who advocate it are wrong. I'm not saying Hoover is right, either, or even sane. I chanced on this and I'm giving it a go for at least a week. (And by a week I mean at least 2 15-minute sessions a day devoted solely to these exercises, along with greater awareness of picking mechanics and their results for the rest of my playing time.)

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence
    "Wes, Pat, Benson, Mclaughlin, etc . . . . weren't picking the way they were because it was the "correct" way to do it. They were doing it the way that felt most comfortable to them."
    I get this a lot. I appreciate it. But here's the rub: the way that is most comfortable for those guys WORKS for them. The most comfortable way for me to play DOESN'T work for me. I don't give a rat's patoot about the "correct" way but I'd give a lot for a way that *works* better for me than the ones I've tried so far.

  7. #6

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    Yeah, I get what you mean about having a way that feels good, but doesn't work once you get to a certain level. I am constantly experimenting with this.

    you know, the angled pick attack thing has been really growing on me. I had the same problem in having too thin of a sound, but I think I have found a happy medium.

    My chops aren't that well off, so I am more concerned with accuracy at this point. Today I worked on picking alone, 16th note triplets from 50-60 bpm, for about 3 hours. Trust me when I say that I was genuinely having a blast doing this. I know there are a ton of other things to practice, but I have become obsessed with chops again.

    I am sure you will find the right way to pick though.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes
    The author doesn't use the phrase "finger motion" but that is what he is talking about. (I think it's also been called "circle picking.") I see his point in this sense: when all the motion is coming from your fingers (-the thumb and index), the pick doesn't move as far as it does when you move the hand with your wrist. It's a lot more efficient to move the pick a fraction of an inch than to move the hand that holds the pick.
    Circle picking using finger motion... yes that's my understanding also. Mclaughlin and Howard Roberts use that technique. But with circle picking the pick is at an angle to the strings.

    Circle picking is so hard to describe. That article link I posted above describes it really well. I really encourage you to read that article, it provides a lot of material to experiment with to find a style that works for you.

    I'm moving in an opposite direction from you, I use to use my fingers and I'm now trying to lock my fingers to force my picking to come from my wrist. I just couldn't use my finger initiated technique with the pick parallel to the strings without a wasted motion of the pick moving up and down away from the guitar.

  9. #8

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    I would think the pick needs to be angled most of the time to get good sound. Also, if you want to play fast, you want the pick to get off the string quickly and flattening the pick would cause it to get hung up.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle
    I would think the pick needs to be angled most of the time to get good sound. Also, if you want to play fast, you want the pick to get off the string quickly and flattening the pick would cause it to get hung up.
    I don't think Charlie Christian angled his pick. (I've been listening to him a lot lately and learning some of his solos.) Herb Ellis may have--he could get awfully speedy at times, much faster than Charlie--though I haven't been able to tell from the videos I've seen. Like a lot of guitar players, his pick probably changed during a performance.

    I grant that the angle is good for speed, but I don't grant that a pick held the regular way will get hung up. It *can* of course, but need not. (If you hold the pick at an angle but show too much, it can slide along the string before striking the note, which isn't good though it's not a complaint against the angled approach because you're not supposed to let *that* much pick show.)


    At the end of the day, I think I'll stick with an angled attack, though for some comping (esp swing comping) I like the greater "thonk" that comes from holding the pick perpendicular to the strings. That attack is also good for riffs.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by markerhodes
    I don't think Charlie Christian angled his pick. (I've been listening to him a lot lately and learning some of his solos.)
    What is it in his sound causes you to think the pick is paralell to the strings?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristotle
    What is it in his sound causes you to think the pick is paralell to the strings?
    The very "thonk" of it!

  13. #12

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    The old "scratchy" recording, the guage of the old strings and thickness of the old picks already create as much thonk as I can distinguish. I find when I hit a string with the pick not angled, the extra grab makes the note late.

  14. #13

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    I own this book. I bought it after it was reviewed in Guitar Player when new, probably in the early 1980s (I wasn't playing jazz then, but the reviewer suggested the book would take anyone's technique through the roof). I used the exercises for a long time. I recollect tying a rag around the neck of the guitar to dampen the strings, and just picking, picking, picking...

    I never regarded the prescribed picking technique (with the wrist fixed and the thumb knuckle dominating) and the un-angled plectrum model as important. I tried it, actually... but it didn't stick. Any relaxed, comfortable, efficient motion that enables controlled alternate picking is good enough.

    The value in the book is the exercises—dozens of them, hundreds maybe, each a variation on the last, climbing a steep and steady grade of difficulty. I'd recommend it to anyone, if you can find a copy.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by fivebells
    ...
    The value in the book is the exercises—dozens of them, hundreds maybe, each a variation on the last, climbing a steep and steady grade of difficulty. I'd recommend it to anyone, if you can find a copy.
    That's the rub. I found it at the library. I was allowed to copy 10% of the pages (I totally respect intellectual property rights). The next few pages I copied by hand. I'm due for some more now.

    If nothing else, the *focus* on my right hand has been a benefit and has helped my playing all-around. The more aware I am of such details, the more aware I am of the sound.

    I took some classical lessons a half a lifetime ago. I found that, once I got the basics of the right hand down, I played (at that baby level) with authority and it was fun. When my right hand is in control (speaking as someone who plays righty), I feel far more confident in my playing.

    However, since my electric playing isn't fingerstyle, it isn't often that I feel so in control of my technique, and that takes a lot of fun out of it. You simply cannot play with authority if somewhere in your consciousness you are aware of a very high probability of missing the string.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fivebells
    I never regarded the prescribed picking technique (with the wrist fixed and the thumb knuckle dominating) and the un-angled plectrum model as important. I tried it, actually... but it didn't stick. Any relaxed, comfortable, efficient motion that enables controlled alternate picking is good enough.

    The value in the book is the exercises—dozens of them, hundreds maybe, each a variation on the last, climbing a steep and steady grade of difficulty. I'd recommend it to anyone, if you can find a copy.
    You know, I had set this book aside because I couldn't hang with the prescribed picking method. (I use a steep angle.) But when I read your post, I had a "doh!" moment. "Hey, just do the exercises, forget the picking instructions." So I'm doing that now. Thanks for the suggestion!

  17. #16

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    i disagree with both his premises. Just listen to Benson, Bailey, Rodney Jones, and many others. All have unbelievable technique and *ALL* slice across the strings and use a long stroke. A rest stroke by the way...

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i disagree with both his premises. Just listen to Benson, Bailey, Rodney Jones, and many others. All have unbelievable technique and *ALL* slice across the strings and use a long stroke. A rest stroke by the way...
    That i don't get: a rest stroke with a pick. I can understand a rest stroke with a finger, but how one is able to so finely regulate the action of a large joint lime the wrist or elbow or wherever that comes from is perplexing to me -- I've never tried it because it seems like it's not practical.

    Ive never studied their techniques, tho. Guess I'm wrong about that.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmoe
    That i don't get: a rest stroke with a pick. I can understand a rest stroke with a finger, but how one is able to so finely regulate the action of a large joint lime the wrist or elbow or wherever that comes from is perplexing to me -- I've never tried it because it seems like it's not practical.

    Ive never studied their techniques, tho. Guess I'm wrong about that.
    Just study them along with Dan Wilson's videos on youtube (Dan Wilson)

    They all use rest-strokes on the downstroke only. Mark Kleinhaut (Mark Kleinhaut) slices and uses rest strokes on up and downstrokes.

    I just started working on using rest strokes on downstrokes. It makes a HUGE difference in feel.

  20. #19

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    i agree that working on something like that as an exercise is a good idea. I'll often practice with benson picking or with a floating right hand just to give me more picking options.

  21. #20

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    Dan Wilson:

    Beginning's a little distorted, but hang on till 0:50 where he starts with the pick. Dang!

  22. #21

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    I don't know. This technique seems to be flawed in speed if done according to the book. I found the entire book online and I don't see how a thumb knuckle can move fast enough to compete with wrist movement. I myself am trying to improve right hand technique and feel that some things mentioned here, like not stretching the fingers but moving the entire hand up and down when going up and down the strings, and not anchoring your right hand, are extremely important. I see this when I watch many fast players (a majority of ones mentioned here). Does anyone else agree here. In my case the pick gets almost caught sometimes trying to fly through scales and lines. If anyone has any suggestions to improve this, I'll love you long time.

  23. #22

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    i agree that there are certain assertions the book makes that are questionable but regarding the thumb knuckle, rodney jones doesn't seem to have a problem with it:

    By the way, note the benson angle and rest strokes...


  24. #23

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    holy shit...

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i agree that there are certain assertions the book makes that are questionable but regarding the thumb knuckle, rodney jones doesn't seem to have a problem with it:

    By the way, note the benson angle and rest strokes...

    Hmm impressive technique, but as far as the thumb knuckle technique spoken of in the book, it doesn't seem that he's moving the knuckle to coincide with the up and down strokes. In fact, it barely moves.

    I guess I'm just looking for a technique that will help with accuracy during fast lines. I developed this rationale that me anchoring the palm of my hand closest to the wrist is what is preventing me from doing that and not moving my entire wrist during string skipping (instead stretching my picking fingers). I don't know just doing some right hand soul searching I guess.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNGuitar
    Hmm impressive technique, but as far as the thumb knuckle technique spoken of in the book, it doesn't seem that he's moving the knuckle to coincide with the up and down strokes. In fact, it barely moves.

    I guess I'm just looking for a technique that will help with accuracy during fast lines. I developed this rationale that me anchoring the palm of my hand closest to the wrist is what is preventing me from doing that and not moving my entire wrist during string skipping (instead stretching my picking fingers). I don't know just doing some right hand soul searching I guess.
    I don't think you can generalize. Most of the best pickers anchor a finger IMO.

    Look at gambale, Benson, Dan Wilson, Rodney Jones, etc. However, Adam Rogers floats and it works for him. I think the benson technique is the best for playing certain things but other techniques are better for other things.