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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Speaking of something else, I've started to look into economy picking a la Jimmy Bruno and Frank Gambale a bit. The last time I tried it, it just felt awfully weird. But I can see the benefits of it. It's just a matter of developing a strong upstroke that sounds the same as the downstroke. And rest stroke picking is of course impossible when using this technique.

    Economy picking actually depends on the rest stroke to execute it correctly. I hate the labels economy and alternate and benson and johnny go lightly technique, as it can confuse the actual mechanics.

    Economy picking deals with the gravity of the pick stroke. Okay, take a c major scale and start on the 3rd fret 5th string with your 2nd finger. If you started with an up stroke, your D will be a downstroke, and your E (on your D string) will also be a down stroke.

    In strict alternate picking, your E would be an upstroke, going against the gravity of the hand. Does that make sense or is it more confusing?

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    Economy picking actually depends on the rest stroke to execute it correctly. I hate the labels economy and alternate and benson and johnny go lightly technique, as it can confuse the actual mechanics.

    Economy picking deals with the gravity of the pick stroke. Okay, take a c major scale and start on the 3rd fret 5th string with your 2nd finger. If you started with an up stroke, your D will be a downstroke, and your E (on your D string) will also be a down stroke.

    In strict alternate picking, your E would be an upstroke, going against the gravity of the hand. Does that make sense or is it more confusing?
    Well, on that downstroke, falling down to the fourth string, one could of course see some similarities with rest stroke picking, but not when doing upstrokes... then you have to turn the hand slightly the other way.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Well, on that downstroke, falling down to the fourth string, one could of course see some similarities with rest stroke picking, but not when doing upstrokes... then you have to turn the hand slightly the other way.
    And I mean on an upstroke, when "falling down" on the fifth string from the fourth string, etc. One could of course view this upstroke motion as a form of rest stroke as well. I guess you include that in the term "rest stroke". But then we can't talk about "gravity", of course
    Last edited by MatsP; 08-28-2015 at 01:40 PM.

  5. #79
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I hate the labels economy and alternate and benson and johnny go lightly technique, as it can confuse the actual mechanics.
    +1
    It may be more long-winded, but from now on I'm using Troy Grady's terms.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    +1
    It may be more long-winded, but from now on I'm using Troy Grady's terms.
    Haha.... yeah, right. He is confusing if anyone

  7. #81
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Haha.... yeah, right. He is confusing if anyone
    Do you really find him confusing? I respect others' views, but I'm curious to know. Personally, I don't.

    I do loathe wading through what looks like a documentary about dinosaurs (produced and presented by an over-earnest but idealistic and enthusiastic young science teacher with a knack for CGI...), but I really admire him and appreciate his efforts to not only explain his findings about motion mechanics but to make them entertaining. (Mind you, his fan-boy style puts such a strain on my patience that I think of him - unfairly - as Troy 'the-lightning-strike-on-the-primordial-sea' Grady.)

    But I have waded through it, and I find what information I've gleaned to be invaluable - and instantly applicable.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Do you really find him confusing? I respect others' views, but I'm curious to know. Personally, I don't.

    I do loathe wading through what looks like a documentary about dinosaurs (produced and presented by an over-earnest but idealistic and enthusiastic young science teacher with a knack for CGI...), but I really admire him and appreciate his efforts to not only explain his findings about motion mechanics but to make them entertaining. (Mind you, his fan-boy style puts such a strain on my patience that I think of him - unfairly - as Troy 'the-lightning-strike-on-the-primordial-sea' Grady.)

    But I have waded through it, and I find what information I've gleaned to be invaluable - and instantly applicable.
    That's good then. Personally I get nothing out of it but confusion. Perhaps I'm just stupid.

  9. #83
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Perhaps I'm just stupid.
    Whether irony's intended or not, that's not it at all.

    There's actually very little content in what he says, but I find these three concepts to be enormously helpful:

    1. edge picking
    2. pick-slanting - backward, forward and downward
    3. arm rotation

    I've put them next to so-called 'anchoring' and my grip of choice - and I'm In Like Flint. I can move on.

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Whether irony's intended or not, that's not it at all.

    There's actually very little content in what he says, but I find these three concepts to be enormously helpful:

    1. edge picking
    2. pick-slanting - backward, forward and downward
    3. arm rotation

    I've put them next to so-called 'anchoring' and my grip of choice - and I'm In Like Flint. I can move on.
    And I really couldn't care less about his over-analysis of various guitarists, since none of them is consistent in his/her playing. They use all sorts of different techniques, but first and foremost, they don't think about these things, they just play.

  11. #85
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    And I really couldn't care less about his over-analysis of various guitarists, since none of them is consistent in his/her playing. They use all sorts of different techniques, but first and foremost, they don't think about these things, they just play.
    I completely agree.

    I could almost fit those three concepts onto the back of a postage stamp. I've just read (on the new pick slanting thread) that they're well-known - but they were new to me.

    Talking about the fretting hand, Julian Lage says (in a master class video that was posted recently) that 'we rotate the forearm around the pinky', and that 'you can trace the movement of the pinky all the way down to the tip of the shoulder-blade'.

    I find what Julian Lage says to be hugely significant with regard to the picking hand; I believe that rotation around the 'anchored' pinky generates torque.

    Moreover, I don't believe it matters which part of the pinky you use (tip, knuckle, side).

    Just sharing thought on the matter.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    I completely agree.

    I could almost fit those three concepts onto the back of a postage stamp. I've just read (on the new pick slanting thread) that they're well-known - but they were new to me.

    Talking about the fretting hand, Julian Lage says (in a master class video that was posted recently) that 'we rotate the forearm around the pinky', and that 'you can trace the movement of the pinky all the way down to the tip of the shoulder-blade'.

    I find what Julian Lage says to be hugely significant with regard to the picking hand; I believe that rotation around the 'anchored' pinky generates torque.

    Moreover, I don't believe it matters which part of the pinky you use (tip, knuckle, side).

    Just sharing thought on the matter.
    Well, that pinky thing I could at least grasp Sounds sensible to me. And if you find these three points from Troy's wild excursions sensible to you, I'm happy for that. By the way, I just found a copy of Jimmy Bruno's "Art of Picking" video with an accompanying text book in PDF format on a torrent site (don't tell anyone). The darn video is dubbed with russian, unfortunately. I think I'm going to buy that stuff from Amazon, since it seems very sensible to me. Anyway, one of his main points is that the rotation should come from the elbow, kind of. The wrist should be relatively "stiff" and straight without moving of tilting. And I agree on that. Sounds a bit like the same type of motion that you get when you "rotate the forearm around the pinky".
    Last edited by MatsP; 08-28-2015 at 11:52 PM.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Well, that pinky thing I could at least grasp Sounds sensible to me. And if you find these three points from Troy's wild excursions sensible to you, I'm happy for that. By the way, I just found a copy of Jimmy Bruno's "Art of Picking" video with an accompanying text book in PDF format on a torrent site (don't tell anyone). The darn video is dubbed with russian, unfortunately. I think I'm going to buy that stuff from Amazon, since it seems very sensible to me. Anyway, one of his main points is that the rotation should come from the elbow, kind of. The wrist should be relatively "stiff" and straight without moving of tilting. And I agree on that. Sounds a bit like the same type of motion that you get when you "rotate the forearm around the pinky".
    And in this context, I personally find it helpful to move the pick back towards the joint of the thumb, in order to minimize any individual motion of the thumb and the index finger. So does Jimmy, in fact.

  14. #88
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Anyway, one of his main points is that the rotation should come from the elbow, kind of. The wrist should be relatively "stiff" and straight without moving of tilting. And I agree on that. Sounds a bit like the same type of motion that you get when you "rotate the forearm around the pinky".
    That's very interesting.

    Did you check out the Johnny Smith interview video - specifically, the part where he clears up an earlier 'misunderstanding' (in print) about the elbow? He uses the metaphor of a pendulum - 'the longer the shaft, the slower the swing, and vice-versa' (words to that effect).

    I completely agree about the wrist - but I prefer the word 'stable'. (The constant elimination of tension - the iron, vice-like grip - is my top priority. Tai Chi is the best solution I've found, because it becomes a lifestyle. I've talked to my teacher about my picking hand, and he had me compare my little daughter's hand at rest to my own - that's become my ideal.) Johnny Smith doesn't talk about rotation, but he does refer to the wrist and faster playing.

    Personally, I think the stable (soft) wrist is necessary for effective transfer of torque - the power from rotation the forearm ("around the pinky").

    And I find (soft) 'anchoring' of the pinky absolutely essential in one grip, but not at all so in another.

    But to return to Jimmy Bruno, what he says about the elbow makes a lot of sense to me. I'm finding that, once the wrist (and pinky) have been placed, it's best not to give them any further thought - best not to 'over-monitor'. Mind in muscle' is a double-edged sword: once fine muscles have been trained, I think it's wise not to interfere. Better to place awareness elsewhere.
    Last edited by destinytot; 09-05-2015 at 09:15 AM.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    That's very interesting.

    Did you check out the Johnny Smith interview video - specifically, the part where he clears up an earlier 'misunderstanding' (in print) about the elbow? He uses the metaphor of a pendulum - 'the longer shaft, the slower the swing, and vice-versa' (words to that effect).

    I completely agree about the wrist - but I prefer the word 'stable'. (The constant elimination of tension - the iron, vice-like grip - is my top priority. Tai Chi is the best solution I've found, because it becomes a lifestyle. I've talked to my teacher about my picking hand, and he had me compare my little daughter's hand at rest to my own - that's become my ideal.) Johnny Smith doesn't talk about rotation, but he does refer to the wrist and faster playing.

    Personally, I think the stable (soft) wrist is necessary for effective transfer of torque - the power from rotation the forearm ("around the pinky").

    And I find (soft) 'anchoring' of the pinky absolutely essential in one grip, but not at all so in another.

    But to return to Jimmy Bruno, what he says about the elbow makes a lot of sense to me. I'm finding that, once the wrist (and pinky) have been placed, it's best not to give them any further thought - best not to 'over-monitor'. Mind in muscle' is a double-edged sword: once fine muscles have been trained, I think it's wise not to interfere. Better to place awareness elsewhere.
    I agree completely with your notion of the wrist being "stable" rather than "stiff". Jimmy doesn't mention anything about "stiff", I used the wrong word here, really. *What" he says, on the other hand, is that it shouldn't "move or tilt", i.e. as I understand it, be in a more or less straight line from the elbow (with some minor deviation allowed of course). He also says that "The right hand, wrist and elbow should always be relaxed and never tense or tight". I subscribe fully to that. And tucking the pick in towards the thumb joint helps me a lot in staying relaxed, since there will be no need for the thumb or index finger to "pinch" the pick, yet there will be enough torque on the upstrokes thanks to having the index finger lay across the back of the pick (with the knuckle somewhere at the edge with my hand) with this grip.
    Last edited by MatsP; 08-29-2015 at 09:40 AM.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    I agree completely with your notion of the wrist being "stable" rather than "stiff". Jimmy doesn't mention anything about "stiff", I used the wrong word here, really. *What" he says, on the other hand, is that it shouldn't "move or tilt", i.e. as I understand it, be in a more or less straight line from the elbow (with some minor deviation allowed of course). He also says that "The right hand, wrist and elbow should always be relaxed and never tense or tight". I subscribe fully to that. And tucking the pick in towards the thumb joint helps me a lot in staying relaxed, since there will be no need for the thumb or index finger to "pinch" the pick, yet there will be enough torque on the upstrokes thanks to having the index finger lay across the back of the pick (with the knuckle somewhere at the edge with my hand) with this grip.
    I suppose the aforementioned grip is referred to by some people as the "power grip", more or less. In any case I'm very comfortable using it together with the type of economy picking that Jimmy (and Frank Gambale, although he seems to try to avoid "breaking the rules" of using down-down and up-up when going from one string to the next, etc. more than Jimmy does) advocates. In some situations you simply have to break those rules, but I have no problem with that. It's just a matter of deciding where in a figure to break them

  17. #91

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    I've been working on getting the hinge movement down to a minimum in my picking and using the forearm to rotate for alternate and "sweep" picking (another detested term). I keep my wrist as loose as possible, so it may appear as if my rotation is coming from my wrist (it's not).

    For any type of picking, I've found that a huge issue for many people (including ME) is that they use too much of the pick and not enough point. Also, they pick too far with each movement of the pick with faster tempos. The pick should have enough movement to just clear the girth of the string and then immediately come back up (not rest stroke for alternate picking, think free stroke?)

    In terms of Tai Chi, or meditation of some sort, I agree it is helpful, especially in locating unwanted tension and ridding it from the body. I need to start doing something of that sort.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    I've been working on getting the hinge movement down to a minimum in my picking and using the forearm to rotate for alternate and "sweep" picking (another detested term). I keep my wrist as loose as possible, so it may appear as if my rotation is coming from my wrist (it's not).

    For any type of picking, I've found that a huge issue for many people (including ME) is that they use too much of the pick and not enough point. Also, they pick too far with each movement of the pick with faster tempos. The pick should have enough movement to just clear the girth of the string and then immediately come back up (not rest stroke for alternate picking, think free stroke?)

    In terms of Tai Chi, or meditation of some sort, I agree it is helpful, especially in locating unwanted tension and ridding it from the body. I need to start doing something of that sort.
    Yes.... a lot of this is on the mental plane, I guess. The relaxation must stem from the brain, otherwise things will lock up sooner or later. I agree that many people use too much of the pick, yet I don't want to choke up on it too much, since that makes arpeggios and similar figures harder to perform, at least in my book. In any case I try to make sure as little of the pick as possible hits the string, unless I really want to dig in, of course. And economy of motion is also important, like you mention there.

  19. #93

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    This economy picking thing really helps me strengthening my upstrokes. I'm slowly getting the hang of the technique, and I like the fact that figures don't necessarily have to sound like smattering AK-47:s. It might fit in some types of music, like Gypsy jazz and Flamenco, of course.

  20. #94
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    The pick should have enough movement to just clear the girth of the string and then immediately come back up (not rest stroke for alternate picking, think free stroke?)
    That makes sense at faster tempos, but I don't claim to know.

    I'm firmly in favour of 'downstrokes are rest strokes, upstrokes are free strokes' at moderate tempos (and mostly downstrokes at slow ones).

    I can say that I'm developing a sense of the connection between the number of notes per string in my fretting hand and picking direction in the other hand, and I feel and hear the improved articulation.
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-29-2015 at 11:06 AM.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    That makes sense at faster tempos, but I don't claim to know.

    I'm firmly in favour of 'downstrokes are rest strokes, upstrokes are free strokes' at moderate tempos (and mostly downstrokes at slow ones).

    I can say that I'm developing a sense of the connection between the number of notes per string in my fretting hand and picking direction in the other hand, and I feel and hear the improved articulation.
    Well, actually I think a real rest stroke is often an unnecessarily long path for the pick to travel, unless you need that extra force and "snap" in the tone that it produces. But that's me.

  22. #96
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    (...) unless you need that extra force and "snap" in the tone that it produces.
    Bingo!

    The downward slant of the pick does contribute to tone (and on upstrokes, it helps the pick clear neighbouring strings), but my reason is rhythm.

    It helps with 'the pocket'; the pick feels like it's cushioned by the strings on the downstroke - and (almost) bounces back.

    I emphasise that I'm talking of moderate (not super-fast) tempos.
    Last edited by destinytot; 08-29-2015 at 01:33 PM. Reason: addition

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Bingo!

    The downward slant of the pick does contribute to tone (and on upstrokes, it helps the pick clear neighbouring strings), but my reason is rhythm.

    It helps with 'the pocket'; the pick feels like it's cushioned by the strings on the downstroke - and (almost) bounces back.

    I emphasise that I'm talking of moderate (not super-fast) tempos.
    Yeah, I get you. I agree on that "bouncing" feeling you get, it's really nice.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    Yeah, I get you. I agree on that "bouncing" feeling you get, it's really nice.
    The only problem with "real" rest strokes is that it's hard to, say, pick a downstroke on the second string, then an upstroke on the third with that kind of angle of the hand. You will need to straighten it up before going to the third string, if you get what I mean.

  25. #99

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    OK, so now I've ordered Jimmy Bruno's "The Art of Picking". I've seen some of it already, and it looks promising.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by MatsP
    OK, so now I've ordered Jimmy Bruno's "The Art of Picking". I've seen some of it already, and it looks promising.
    It is a good book. Lots of great (and musical) exercises.