Trouble playing fast!

**Laurits** · 03-02-2011, 03:43 PM

Hello everyone!

I'm pretty tired of not being able to play faster, no matter how much I practice (I might exaggerate a bit :b), so I've spent some time wondering what might be the problem. I am pretty sure that it is my coordination that suck, but by using my metronome and starting out by playing slow and then gradually increasing tempo, I should get over that problem. BUT!!! I don't, and I think the reason is that I'm having trouble really relaxing my body when I have to play fast. All my muscles are "tightened" (I don't know if you use that word), and therefore my playing sound horrible, and when I reach a certain tempo, I can't hit the right notes or even the right string.

I am practicing a lot with my metronome to try and relax, but I want to know, if you got other ideas that could help me solve this problem?

/Laurits

**JonnyPac** · 03-02-2011, 04:25 PM

What do you consider "fast". What BPM is your max speed for 16th note runs?

**Laurits** · 03-02-2011, 04:35 PM

It's getting difficult around 125-30! And if I try to remain fully relaxed I can go to 110 or so..

**wolflen** · 03-02-2011, 04:51 PM

a common problem...speed in and of itself is not a useful goal..."wow i can play fast"...yeah..so what...the reasons you want to play fast may be in and of themselves the reasons you cannot play fast...

are you in a race with "someone in your head"..that is..are you trying to impress someone other than yourself...if so...you will NEVER play fast enough...because your not playing for YOU..you have to impress yourself first..

i find it very helpful to use a tape recorder or some kind of play back...where you can hear just what you sound like...most people i teach are surprised at the way they play...many find them selves to be better players than they think..because they are playing to some imaginary listeners who are not easy to impress and you want so bad to impress them..."boy if i could only play as fast as____" yeah right...and then what..you have to play and listen to YOU...

do this...forget speed for now...play music..switch gears..impress yourself...do some very simple basic licks for example...transpose that lick into every key..find it in every position play it forward and backward..invert it..start it on different notes...play a major scale and incorporate that lick into the scale...play it on one string at a time...know where those notes are without looking at the fretboard..write the lick out in as many keys as you can...read them in all the different keys one after the other...record your efforts...do this for 3 months...

find another lick...do as above...this one will be easier to go through the above exercises...if you persist in this type of approach and develop melodic skills...you will develop speed as a by product of this type of study..breathing and visualization ... be conscious of your breathing...picture the fretboard in your mind and play the licks ... with practice you will develop more melodic ideas...if you record your progress and and are consistent with your practice you will notice after several months that you are playing much faster than you thought...with out trying..and you will be impressed with YOUR playing...this will build confidence in your abilities and your playing will improve...alot...and with that speed will come..try not to make playing a "speed contest" ... mclaughlin & co developed a style before they had the speed they do now..the speed came after...and for many speed players...it is a choice .. not a necessity...

play well

wolf

**Stackabones** · 03-02-2011, 05:10 PM

Think about what's on Jim Hall's biz card: "Won't play loud, can't play fast."

**Laurits** · 03-02-2011, 06:09 PM

Thank you for your answers! I will surely try recording my own playing as soon as I have some proper equipment for it. I know it isn't all about speed, and playing fast isn't the biggest issue. I tighten every single muscle in my body when I have to play something that I find a little difficult, and that surely doesn't make it any easier.

It is especially a problem when I'm improvising. I have never really improvised that much, so I am unfortunately pretty new to it, and perhaps it is just because I am nervous. And well... I get nervous because I dont like my own improvising.

I know there aren't any magical solutions, but sometimes I really wish there were :P

I have heard the recording tip before, and maybe I should just do it even though I only have my cell phone to record with. I guess it can give me a basic idea!

I will keep working with the metronome, not to build speed, but to improve my coordination and become more comfortable with my guitar! Thanks again!

/Laurits

**Kman** · 03-02-2011, 06:25 PM

Tal Farlow was asked how he learned to play so fast and he said it was forced on him. Band leaders were counting off tempos so fast that he had no choice. So the message is crank up that metronome keep at it.

**paynow** · 03-02-2011, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kman

Tal Farlow was asked how he learned to play so fast and he said it was forced on him. Band leaders were counting off tempos so fast that he had no choice. So the message is crank up that metronome keep at it.

Yup. I've mentioned this on the JGF several times. For the most part it was Red Norvo:

His comments on speed come at about 4:50 into this. There's a DVD with Jody Fisher called "An Evening With Tal Farlow" where he basically says the same thing and indicates that speed comes from practicing. He really doesn't offer much more than that.

**Jazzpunk** · 03-02-2011, 07:11 PM

My advice would be to find a solo you like that is out of your comfort zone tempo wise, learn it and than gradually work it up to speed. That way you'll be building your vocabulary and chops at the same time.

This is the method I am using now and it is proving to be much more fruitful than my previous method of just shedding scales and patterns with no musical context. Wish I had figured this out earlier but better late than never!

As always, YMMV.

**JonnyPac** · 03-02-2011, 07:36 PM

Well here's a post from another thread that might give you my side of playing at different tempos.

Originally Posted by JonnyPac

I can't shred metal, jazz, or anything. I'm one slow mofo. I can play at various BPMs though. My upper limit has increased a lot over the years too.

Some things work best at certain tempos. There are thresholds, I guess.

For me, ballads allow the most diversity though the trade-off is space in the accompaniment. It is tougher to keep time if the rhythmic guides are few and far between. 32nds and odd groupings are typically easier... 3 over 4 or 4 over 3 work well too.

In the mid tempos 8th notes RULE!!! Bop lines are usually based around swung 8ths. Triplets and 16ths are used as embellishments. 16ths are the common ground for some players and they are usually considered to be "double timing". Coltrane and Pat Martino come to mind. Pianists horn players can go there with more ease than the average guitarist. Some dudes don't bother... Horace Silver just grooved without goin' speed-demon.

At a certain point, 16ths become too fast for even the fastest. Giant steps at 280-something had Trane pullin' mainly 8ths and triplets.

I can play 16ths with creative control (not just patterns and flourishes) up to 130 BPM. Pretty slow considering most metal-head teens can out-shred me at 140-170.

Between 190 and 220 (my max) I'm on 8th note/syncopation/triplet duty. Forget running solid streams of anything. sigh...

It's good to know what works for you at any given tempo. Think about the big picture: the song form and the changes, etc.

I'm no faster than you, so it sounds.

Try to relax and play musical lines and are sincere. Best wishes.

**the_emptier** · 03-03-2011, 02:59 AM

this thread got me thinking about tension when I play, and i started feeling tense at around 150 bpm with 16th notes running a 2 octave chromatic scale. actually i noticed tension when i was working on getting up a difficult, but super fun, rhythm section solo in a piece in my jazz band. it's 120 cut time and the whole solo is 8th notes with some triplets thrown in. i can play it up to speed but it's fairly tense, trying to work on it being loose. it's been well over a year since i've played metal/rock so I haven't really cared to work on speed because nothing i've learned has required anything more of my technique. i guess spending a formidable amount of time trying to get fast so i can shred like the big boys payed off? although i don't recommend that :0

**drewdea** · 03-03-2011, 03:01 AM

all the posts tend to agree that speed isn't everything. I can tell you that the most important thing is feel. that being said, there are things you can do to help your technique. don't tense up. practice tremolo-ing one note then add a few notes in at a time. I recommend using a dunlop ultex sharp pick (1.14mm) .... record yourself playing with a metronome and see where your feel is. add a certain speed you will start to lose it .. push yourself to that point but don't tense up .... over time your speed will increase and in the end, when you have the speed you want, you'll see that speed is not the important thing ...... Drew DeAscentis | Gratis muziek, tourneedata, foto's, video's

**randalljazz** · 03-03-2011, 05:49 AM

do ya think someone who talks fast has deeper thoughts or more worth saying?

**MarkRhodes** · 03-03-2011, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

do ya think someone who talks fast has deeper thoughts or more worth saying?

No, but just because someone talks slow doesn't mean they're deep, either. Learn to play the music, keep playing the music, and you will get fast enough.

**fumblefingers** · 03-03-2011, 09:45 AM

I saw a speed drill demo by a flamenco player online recently. I think it has some merit.

Play the following cleanly.

choose a one or two octave scale or mode
play two notes as fast and clean as possible. do it a few times
then 3 in same fashion
then 4
then so on and so on until you play the full octave ascending and descending.

This is mostly for right/left hand coordination without shifting.

When you add shifting (2-3 octave scales etc) you introduce another problem to work on. so, you break that down too. play the notes involved in the shift itself ascending and descending until you can play them as smoothly and quickly as the rest of the scale.

This can be applied to arpeggios too of course. It can build your speed and confidence by having you take "small bites". Give it a try.

**MarkRhodes** · 03-03-2011, 10:36 AM

That speed drill sounds good, fumblefingers.

As for speed, I agree that it's not the most important thing BUT if there's a *technical* reason one can't play fast (-poor fingering, inconsistent picking mechanics, what have you), that needs to be addressed because it shows up in other places. Whether one plays fast or slow, accuracy and consistency are good for the music.

**fep** · 03-03-2011, 10:45 AM

Hey guys there are reasons to practice playing fast.

Like wanting to play the jazz repetoire without tensing up. Don't you want to include some bebop in your repetoire? Some mambos? etc.

And don't you want be able to execute the head even when the bandleader counts off the song at some ridicolous tempo. This happens.

Like the OP I also struggle with speed. And hit the wall at 16ths at about 120bpm. And I never want to play at my max in an actual performance, I need room to spare so I can relax and play clean.

I think one needs to really look at ones technique, or have someone who can play fast look at your technique.

In my case, my right hand technique was flawed. I was using finger and thumb movement and I had an extra motion in and out of the strings. I've just changed to a 'Benson grip' which locks up my finger and thumb, so I'm picking from the wrist and eliminating that motion in and out of the strings. A much more economic motion. So I'm trying to rebuild my tempos using this technique. It's worth a try.

I've been watching beginner and intermediate players. A lot of us have that same problem I described.

**Laurits** · 03-03-2011, 11:19 AM

All these answers are great! And I truly do agree with you.... speed isn't everything, but as some of you say, it is a necessity in some songs. I like this discussion although I am sorry if I have mislead any of you! Speed isn't the real problem, the problem is tensions when playing.

**fep** · 03-03-2011, 11:26 AM

The Benson technique should eliminate tension.

Here's the best and most comprehensive article I've found on picking technique (I posted this years ago, but can't find the post):

Tuck & Patti: Pick & Fingerstyle Techniques

**paynow** · 03-03-2011, 12:47 PM

You get to see a bit of the Herb Ellis picking technique here:

**Laurits** · 03-03-2011, 01:56 PM

Thank you Fep!

That was exactly the kind of answer I was looking for

/Laurits

**drewdea** · 03-03-2011, 02:23 PM

this is a great topic and very applicable to guitar players. I would caution angling the pick backwards (counterclockwise) though ... I spent years undoing that bad habit. I didn't like the way my feel was against a band .. I went and recorded into protools and compared the position of my notes against a visual click (waveforms) ...I was pretty consistantly off be 15-20 ms which is a lot at higher tempos. I found that the technique i used for 30 years was flawed. It's why my bebop would fall apart at higher tempos. fixing this technique made me smoother, more relaxed and improved my ability to play the lines I wanted. though the old technique was actually a bit faster. It's sort of difficult to explain but it really was a life changer.