Jazz Guitar Picking Technique

[MarkRhodes]

Picking has always been my biggest problem. I developed a bad habit early, strumming CAGED chords with a Fender Thin pick on acoustic guitars: holding my pick by the fleshy side of the index against the thumb.

Roughly twenty years ago, I realized that was wrong and wanted to fix it. I tried everything I could think of and when that didn’t work, I went to a jazz guitarist for lessons. He taught me a lot of things but didn’t help with my picking at all.

“There’s no one right way,” he’d say.
“I’m not asking for The Right Way. I’m telling you my way *fails* me and I have to change but I don’t know what to change *to.*”
He’d shake his head, not liking the subject at all. “Keep playing,” he would say. “It’ll come.”
It didn’t.
I stopped taking lessons because I grew frustrated with my inconsistency. It’s one thing to fumble through something you don’t know but something else to struggle with something You Really Do Know How To Play.

So here we are.

Since I can’t show you a picture, I’ll have to describe the problem. One of the difficulties with this is no matter how I grip a pick—and I’ve tried everything I can think up or see demonstrated online--when I start playing the pick moves to the end of my index finger. At this point, the tip of my index finger points toward the strings. Indeed, sometimes my index finger rather then the pick hits the string. Sometimes the pick AND the tip of the index hit the string separately. I don’t know how that looks because I never see it, just feel it and say, “Damn, why do I keep DOING that?”

This morning, I sat outside and thought about this. Just to see what I could see, I imagined myself holding a guitar and then moved my right hand / arm as if I were playing. I knew that I didn’t pick from the elbow, so I always assumed I used wrist motion. To my surprise, I found out that most of the motion comes from my *forearm* rolling back and forth. The forearm motion rolls the pick *away* from the strings at either extreme. Imagine a clock face: the ideal pick stroke should be straight down from 12 to 6. Mine, however, follows the arc of numbers, coming closest to the strings at 3 and being furthest from them at 12 and 6.

That’s screwed up. (It being Sunday, can a get an ‘amen’?)

I think I need to experiment with motion from the elbow. Forearm motion is bad and using the wrist leads (me) to forearm motion, so elbow motion seems to be the way to go.

Only, really? Pick from the elbow? How do you hold a (jazz) guitar so that elbow is free to generate all the motion? Does any part of the arm (below the elbow) touch the guitar at all? Hey, I’m open to the idea, I’m just not *clear* on it. (I was a philosophy major: so little is clear to me, it’s a wonder I can dress myself.)

Also, um, what pick grip is best for the use of elbow motion? I *think* that my rolling forearm caused the movement of the pick in my hand. Without that, the pick should stay where I put it to begin with (-or at least much more nearly so than now). But I don’t know how a proper grip is supposed to feel.


Thanks in advance for the wonderful advice I’m sure to receive here.

[hot ford coupe]

I know what the problem is and I can see your dilemma. The only advice I can offer is to anchor the forearm and use only the wrist action. this will take some practice but it will get rid of that arching motion and straighten out the pick sweep. The stroke should be from the wrist like you were using a hammer and not rotating the forearm.

[Stackabones]

I developed a bad habit early, strumming CAGED chords with a Fender Thin pick on acoustic guitars: holding my pick by the fleshy side of the index against the thumb.

This doesn't sound like a bad habit at all. Where did you get this notion?

Indeed, sometimes my index finger rather then the pick hits the string. Sometimes the pick AND the tip of the index hit the string separately. I don’t know how that looks because I never see it, just feel it and say, “Damn, why do I keep DOING that?”

One piece of advice I constantly give students, Slow down. If you can't figure out why something isn't working, slow down and pay attention.

Imagine a clock face: the ideal pick stroke should be straight down from 12 to 6. Mine, however, follows the arc of numbers, coming closest to the strings at 3 and being furthest from them at 12 and 6.

I'm not sure that your notion of an ideal pick stroke is the ideal pick stroke. I think you're overthinking it a bit.

Have you considered getting rid of the pick? I say this not because I think your picking is a problem, but because your attitude about your picking is a bit stressed.

Also, it is very difficult to make an assessment of this nature over the internet, especially without a vid or pics or soundfile.

[MarkRhodes]

This doesn't sound like a bad habit at all. Where did you get this notion?

Through playing. I don't *want* to strike the strings with the nail of my index instead of the pick. Also, the pick tends to turn sideways and brush the strings rather than pick them. When I was playing a solidbody through a tube screamer, that didn't matter much, but when playing an archtop with flatwounds, it makes a big difference.

If I could count on it, though, I could live with it. But it's too inconsistent.

[Stackabones]

Through playing. I don't *want* to strike the strings with the nail of my index instead of the pick. Also, the pick tends to turn sideways and brush the strings rather than pick them. When I was playing a solidbody through a tube screamer, that didn't matter much, but when playing an archtop with flatwounds, it makes a big difference.

If I could count on it, though, I could live with it. But it's too inconsistent.

Retooling your picking (or any) technique is often a major undertaking, as I'm sure you're realizing. Have you considered another teacher?

[Dad3353]

...Have you considered getting rid of the pick?...

Good evening, Mark...
This isn't going to help you much, perhaps, but I have had a similar 'hate/hate' relationship with picks (plectra..?) for a very long time. I have tried several times, with different approaches and picks, but am now (40 years on...) more or less resigned to using only my fingers (or rather fingernails, mostly...). There are certainly some styles that suffer from this, but not many (at least, for me...), and I'm never had the problem of misplacing picks that many guitarists seem to have.
As I said; doesn't help your case, I know, but I spend zero time on 'pick' problems, and no stress.

PS: bonus 'practical' advice (?)... If slippage is the problem, 'superglue' may be a solution... No..? Really..? Oh, sorry, then...

[max_power]

Picking has always been my biggest problem. I developed a bad habit early, strumming CAGED chords with a Fender Thin pick on acoustic guitars: holding my pick by the fleshy side of the index against the thumb.

What kind of picks do you use now?

Using thin picks can contribute to inconsistent picking, since the pick bends every time you play a string (and the degree of the bend depends on how hard you pick). Switch to the thickest picks you can find, since they'll provide 100% consistency. I know this doesn't solve your picking problem entirely, but it'll definitely help.

[MarkRhodes]

What kind of picks do you use now?

Little Stubbies (3 mm). I used Jazz IIIs for a long time and still have some around.

[MarkRhodes]

G I have tried several times, with different approaches and picks, but am now (40 years on...) more or less resigned to using only my fingers (or rather fingernails, mostly...)

Freddie King (-great blues player) did that too. Said he could never hold a pick. I use my fingers sometimes and enjoy it, though I want a pick for single note soloing, and also rhythmic strumming. (I still write some rock / country songs and strumming is called for.)

Superglue? I could see that if I dropped picks---which I rarely do. I think what makes them move is my forearm motion, which changes the angle at which the pick strikes the strings. I think that's what makes it move, rather than having a slippery grip.

[JakeAcci]

I have been working a LOT on pick technique for the past year.

You're right that a lot of teachers don't have much to say about picking mechanics. This was an educational thread: Plectrum Guitarists: Towards a Unified Theory of the Right Hand? - Jazz Bulletin Board

As was said, it's hard to really give advise without sitting in a room with you and watching you pick. But I'd strongly recommend experimenting with the following:

finger motion vs. wrist motion vs elbow motion

pick grips - try thumb + index + middle

- experiment with how far away the pick is from the tips of your fingers (whatever fingers are on the pick). I've come to think that the closer the pick is to your finger tips, the more articulation and control you have for alternate picking, but less power and less of a clear grip. The more you're on the pads, the more power (and better grip) but less articulation with string crossing. So it's all a compromise. Just my experiences from my own playing and watching my students, so YMMV and others experiences may differ. (I haven't really dug into to how this all affects 'economy' picking.)

big picks, little picks, thick picks, thin picks...good to try em all...

pick angles. There are two angles to consider, not just one...there are a lot of different ways the pick can strike the strings, some angles are more conducive to certain technical situations.

lastly, whether you're mostly going to be using alternate picking or 'economy' picking is something to consider - it affects all of the above.

I've experimented with all of these things and made a lot of interesting discoveries that have really helped my technique and control with the pick. My biggest conclusion was that there really are different tools for different situations. Certain passages, for me, are easiest with a certain type of pick held at a certain angle, with a certain grip, and with a specific balance of finger vs wrist vs elbow, while other passages might be easiest under the opposite conditions. Luckily, for jazz the situations don't vary that dramatically (I realize that to play rhythm guitar in a blues situation I have to have everything set up all different than to play a post bop horn line) but I've found compromises to lead me to better grips and angles, etc.

[Jarred]

Hey man, sounds wierd dude, can't you try to first strum/pic without a pic using just the tip of your index finger about a centimeter ahead for your thumb against it still, as if you were holding a pic but you're strumming/piccing with your finger, see what happens and maybe try to solidify that and then grab a plectrum and now just do that...? Ofcourse gently strumming/picking up and down the strings, making sure you hit every note/string you aim for...

[monk]

Here's a video of a true master at work. A little soft in the focus department but sharp enough to see what good pick technique looks like.

I hope this helps,
monk

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a video of a true master at work. A little soft in the focus department but sharp enough to see what good pick technique looks like.

Wow. I'd never seen footage of him playing before. Beautiful work, great tone. Thank you for posting that.

His right hand is steady. The pick doesn't get nearer to or further from the strings during a stroke--it's even. The question for me is the George Clinton question: "Can you get to that?"

[hot ford coupe]

Here's a video of a true master at work. A little soft in the focus department but sharp enough to see what good pick technique looks like.

I hope this helps,
monk

With Johnny Smith at the instrument, you can't go wrong.

[MarkRhodes]

One piece of advice I constantly give students, Slow down. If you can't figure out why something isn't working, slow down and pay attention.

That is great advice. But there is a problem with that approach and this is it. If you isolate a passage and get it up to tempo, that doesn't mean you can play it smoothly at tempo *in the context of a song* because in that case you're going to that passage from something else and sometimes the problem is *there*.

In my case, the problem stemmed from rotating the forearm and changing the pick's distance from the strings. This happens *before* I strike a note. When I isolate "trouble passages" it tends not to happen because I'm working in a close area and my forearm doesn't rotate as much. When the problem is the rotation of the forearm, playing the *notes* over and over doesn't help *at all* because they're not the problem. (Of course, *if* the notes are the problem, then you have to play them as slow as necessary to play them right with swing.)

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a video of a true master at work. A little soft in the focus department but sharp enough to see what good pick technique looks like.

I hope this helps,
monk

According to Jerry Hahn, Johnny Smith was a strict advocate of elbow motion.

[Stackabones]

That is great advice. But there is a problem with that approach and this is it. If you isolate a passage and get it up to tempo, that doesn't mean you can play it smoothly at tempo *in the context of a song* because in that case you're going to that passage from something else and sometimes the problem is *there*.

Don't just isolate the passage and slow down, perform the entire tune slowly. It sounds like you are attempting to go through a fundamental restructuring of your picking technique. In order to do so, you've got to redo everything -- not just isolated passages -- and do it much more slowly. The habits you've developed before are tough to root out, and it'll take a herculean effort to replace those habits with new ones. Muscle memory isn't replaced too easily. Not just notes we're talking about, though the notes are related to the way you play them -- and you aren't happy with the way you play the notes. It's still a situation of slowing down and retraining your picking hand to get the results you desire.

A basic rule of thumb is that the tempo at which you can play the most difficult passage of the song is the tempo at which you can play the whole song. If you can play the song at 150bpm, except for the problem passage, which you can play at 100bpm, then you can't play the song faster than 100bpm. You don't start the song at 150bpm, and then bump down to 100bpm and afterwards race back up to 150bpm. Start and end at the same tempo. As you rework your technique, most of you repertoire will slow down considerably for a while.

[MarkRhodes]

A basic rule of thumb is that the tempo at which you can play the most difficult passage of the song is the tempo at which you can play the whole song. If you can play the song at 150bpm, except for the problem passage, which you can play at 100bpm, then you can't play the song faster than 100bpm.

I get that. But your assumption is that the problem passage is at a fixed tempo. I have had days of recording my "devils" and using a metronome. One day I play something smooth at 160 bpm but the next day I'm clumsy at half that. Then the next day I'm smooth at 120, and the following day, not smooth at all. The next day, I'm fine at 160 again. The problem in such cases lies not in playing too fast but doing something wrong mechanically that makes me botch something I know how to play and have practiced slow.

You're right, of course, that changing my picking will be a herculean task. I don't expect it to be easy or quick. I'd much rather be learning new tunes than re-learning how to hold a pick and move my arm! But what I'm doing doesn't work--at least not consistently--and I can't live with that anymore.

[Stackabones]

I get that. But your assumption is that the problem passage is at a fixed tempo. I have had days of recording my "devils" and using a metronome. One day I play something smooth at 160 bpm but the next day I'm clumsy at half that. Then the next day I'm smooth at 120, and the following day, not smooth at all. The next day, I'm fine at 160 again. The problem in such cases lies not in playing too fast but doing something wrong mechanically that makes me botch something I know how to play and have practiced slow.

It's not a day-to-day thing. You have to be able to play something at X tempo for weeks before you shift to another tempo. The mechanical issues are usually practice issues -- either inconsistent practicing or error-laden practicing. Difficult issues for one to assess on one's own.

I'd recommend getting a teacher. This is really something quite difficult to assess & fix over the internet. Find a teacher you can trust and one whom you can follow his advice.

Best of luck with your technique. It's quite an undertaking, but one that can be rewarding. I'll step out of this thread and let other voices chime in.

btw, have you considering getting rid of the pick?

[monk]

According to Jerry Hahn, Johnny Smith was a strict advocate of elbow motion.

In this video he's using a combination of wrist and elbow but the wrist appears to be predominant.

[MarkRhodes]

In this video he's using a combination of wrist and elbow but the wrist appears to be predominant.

That's what I thought. It's why the Jerry Hahn quote--from his method book; he claims Johnny Smith as a great influence--was worth mentioning.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=Stackabones;116083btw, have you considering getting rid of the pick? [/QUOTE]

Based on the wisdom of the West (-"When ten people tell you you're drunk, you'd better sit down"), I'm going to give this a go. I like to comp without a pick. (Not that I'm good at it yet but I like the more "pianistic" rendering of chords.) I"ll see what works for me this way.

My worry is that the *volume* will vary too much between notes and that chord snaps won't, well, snap, but if it's consistent, I can build a repertoire around my skill level and expand the former as the latter increases. Who knows, I might become jazzier as a result.

By the way, I appreciate all the advice that's been given here and esp yours, Stackabones, because you've done yeoman's work with a less-than-docile pupil. I owe you one.

[Reg]

Almost all guitarist with clean effortless chops have the ability to play from wrist... it is just technically too much work from the arm. When your playing normal tunes etc... it doesn't really matter. I have worked on pick technique for over 40 years and have spent too much time checking out guitarist... since youtube it is now pretty easy... here's a sample from my youtube sight
There not showcase material but you can see my technique... hope helps Reg

[JakeAcci]

Almost all guitarist with clean effortless chops have the ability to play from wrist... it is just technically too much work from the arm. When your playing normal tunes etc... it doesn't really matter. I have worked on pick technique for over 40 years and have spent too much time checking out guitarist... since youtube it is now pretty easy... here's a sample from my youtube sight
There not showcase material but you can see my technique... hope helps Reg

great playing, but we can't see your wrist/arm!

[Stackabones]

By the way, I appreciate all the advice that's been given here and esp yours, Stackabones, because you've done yeoman's work with a less-than-docile pupil. I owe you one.

You're welcome!