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Pat Metheny has his own style and it includes bends, but things like pre-bends, too.
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10-15-2010 10:57 AM
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When I first plugged in my new archtop jazz guitar I jokingly set the tone for gonzo rock and tried a nice big bend. The floating bridge slid sideways about an eighth of an inch. So much for being in tune.
If you hear bends in your mind and can do it....just do it.
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Django and Charlie Christan did bends, as has been said, Eddie Lang did bends, Lonnie Johnson did bends, and these are the people who invented jazz guitar.
Originally Posted by KingCrimson250
I'm just guessing (Mr beaumont will probably know more about this than I), but might the non-bend idea come from orchestral/big band work? In a combo, if you play a minor third and bend up to the major third, for example, and the note in between clashes with, e.g., the bass line momentarily, it doesn't matter, but if you have a whole woodwind section playing longish notes, you have more likelihood of creating some serious dissonance.
Ditto for vibrato - remember that the vibrato of a fretted string instrument like the guitar is not, in fact, 'true' vibrato. When a singer or violinist does vibrato, he goes above and below the note. A guitarist can only sharpen it (tremolo arms aside). Plus, most electric guitarists and many classical guitarists never learn to play a properly disciplined vibrato (the rate of the vibrato should bear some relationship to the pulse of the music).
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I know listening to some early jazz guitar and blues guitar players bend notes it was clear that
they were playing string guages and action setups that were uncooperative for bending.
Perhaps if anyone here was alive and paying attention to guitars in the 40's and 50's
they could speak on what options were available at the time.
Bending notes is part of the African origins of the music.
Our modern day setups can easily allow for string bending.
If it is a sound that you hear then play it.
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Good evening, John... Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Just a detail (being 'picky'..?). One can start the note from the semitone below, and vibrato above and below the target note. Difficult to master, but 'do-able', just the same. Can be useful.
Hope this helps...
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This is a frequently used mainstream blues and rock technique that isn't really very difficult to master. Originally Posted by Dad3353
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I just think jazz guitarists tend to hold themselves to a higher standard of musicality and virtuosity and bending is cheating. I'm not really talking about micro or half step bends which is really just a form of chromaticism. I'm talking about full step or greater bends and especially pre-bends. I used that stuff all the time when I played only electric rock and blues. Then when I started learning jazz I began to focus more on trying to make interesting, melodic statements without reliance on the instant emotional gratification of a bend.
This is why bending is a cheat: all a rock guitarist has to do is crank it up to 11, hold the neck, um, erect...then bend and release and bend and release while putting on his best guitar face and the panties begin flying. It's just too easy for jazz.
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The whole purist thing drives me nuts! I remember back in the early 60s where it was a sin to use a little reverb.
I don't believe that HR is "cheating" here at :36 and 1:12?
Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 10-16-2010 at 06:46 AM.
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My first reaction to this statement was to fly into a tirade. Originally Posted by Goofsus4
After a few moments of deep breathing... I thought it might be better to ask a few questions instead.
1. Do trumpet players consider bending in to a note or lip slurs cheating?
2. Can you name more than two or three sax players who don't bend?
3. Just how many jazz guitarists have you listened to.
I'm not trying to start a war on this. I just consider that your statement was a little inflammatory.
Cheers,
Ron
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I think it's more the case that blues guitarists and rock guitarists bend a lot, while jazz guitarists use it with more restraint (like that groovy Howard Roberts Girl Talk).
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It's funny, folks always say "jazz players don't bend" but not only do many of them do--the only people I've ever heard say this are not jazz players!
I think the biggest reason jazz players aren't bending all over the place simply has to do with the set up of a jazz guitar. Then folks learn from their favorites who didn't bend a lot, and it eventually becomes what it is.
and John, absolutely, the guitar's role in big band music has something to do with it--we're essentially tuned percussion there--no reason to sacrifice tone and volume to put on skinny little strings so we can bend away!
personally, I like that bending is used sparingly in jazz guitar music. If I had a dollar for every rock guitar player I've heard who had no idea how to bend a note in tune (and I'm not talking about microtonal bends, or bends intentionally flat or sharp--I'm talking about cats who just can't do the shit right) --anyway, I'd buy me a L5. No reason to hear guys struggling to bend to pitch on .13 gauge flatounds, too.
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Bending in Blues was originally trying to emulate the sound of bottleneck playing (according to Muddy Waters, I think).
James Burton popularized it on TV behind Ricky Nelson. He used a banjo string for his high E, then shifted the others and threw out the low E in the package of strings. Others may have preceded him in this, but it was years before Ernie Ball brought out "Slinky" sets.
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A step and a half with 12s? No problem? That is scary. Originally Posted by KingCrimson250
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I remember the first very thin strings I bought. They were Guild Sidewinders. What I remember the most was how awful I was about pulling everything out of tune when I played a chord.
I think that when it comes to bending in tune, Larry Carlton is the master. He practiced playing scales by bending every other note.
But I agree that a LOT of bending really doesn't work in most standard jazz tunes.
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Exactly. Originally Posted by Goofsus4
Another thing is slurring. What is the point? This is Jazz guitar, not 'Slur guitar'. I'm not too fond of legato in jazz either (or pull offs). Picking every note is where real jazz guitar belongs. Accenting the offbeats etc with a swing based on the triplet.
Something else that i find a little distressing, is Chordal playing that uses stretchy type chords with minor 2nds and 'weird' chords.
Try to avoid too much bluesy playing. I know that a lot of Jazz is blues based but i don't really like the blues.
Piano is my favorite instrument. Try bending those suckers!!!
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Remember when electric keyboards came out with a pitch bending control at the end of the keyboard? Players went nuts with that. Then there was that synth that you strapped on like a guitar. Originally Posted by mike walker
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I remember when Gary Burton was using a technique that sounded like bending on vibes. Harder to bend than piano keys. Of course he also tried electronic vibes through a fuzz. Bleechhh.
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Reminds me of when I hired Mike Miller (great guitarist used to play with Chick Corea) to do a guitar clinic. Clinic was winding down and someone ask Mike who his favorite guitarist was, he said Bill Evans. That caught all the students off guard. Then he play some amazing chord melody and originals. Originally Posted by mike walker
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I played blues before I played jazz, but when I play jazz I rarely find opportunities in which it would sound good to bend notes by more than half a step. I suppose that if I specifically practiced bending within a jazz context I would be able to do it more often, but this is one of those things that takes a good amount of practice time in order to do it well - and I don't have a whole lot of time to practice. What would be a more productive use of my time, spending an hour a day practicing bending in a jazz context or spending an hour a day transcribing/practicing a Charlie Parker solo? I tend to lean towards the latter.
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Thanks for the restraint. We are playing guitars, not trumpets or saxes. You want to scoop, play a sax. I've listened to a lot of jazz guitarists. Most don't bend a lot, which is why this question comes up. It's more than the gauge of the strings. Ultimately, it's my opinion. So kudos for your for not flying off the handle. Originally Posted by RonD
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@ Goofus,
Re: restraint, No problem. I sometimes swing first, ask questions later. Must learn restraint! This is afterall, a discussion.
I will challenge your statement about "playing guitars". I thought we were playing Jazz.
Bending, scooping, slurring, hammer ons, etc... are merely devices for communicating expression.
If it helps to get out the sound, why not take advantage of it?
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Well, to give an analogy from another artistic medium. I read that the great American painter John Singer Sargent, who used both oils and watercolors, prefering the latter for his personal enjoyment, was once asked about the use of pastels in painting. He replied that most artists using pastels were trying to emulate oil painting, so why not just use oil? Originally Posted by RonD
@ Goofus,
Re: restraint, No problem. I sometimes swing first, ask questions later. Must learn restraint! This is afterall, a discussion.
I will challenge your statement about "playing guitars". I thought we were playing Jazz.
Bending, scooping, slurring, hammer ons, etc... are merely devices for communicating expression.
If it helps to get out the sound, why not take advantage of it?
That's sort of the way I see the guitar bending thing. People often say string bending is an attempt to have the guitar mimic a horn. While that may be true, what's the point. If you want to sound like a horn, then just learn to play a horn. I think that a guitarist should focus on the unique features of a guitar. For example, the whole concept of chord melody and the unique type of polytonal comping only a guitar can do. It's a very unique sound that only the guitarist can do. You never hear a piano player or a sax player talking about trying to sound like a guitar. In a way, it's almost like we have an inferiority complex or something - that we have to try to make our instruments sound like something other than what it is.
So when playing jazz, let the horn players do what they do best, and let the guitar players do what they do best.
I know I'm just stirring the pot a bit here. In the end, I just like what I like. If someone else wants to hear a bunch of bends from a jazz guitarist, that's great. It doesn't hurt me. I was just responding to the original question about why string bending is not a hallmark feature of jazz guitar, like it is for rock guitar. It seems to me that its more than just about the gauge of the strings. If it were really that attractive in jazz guitar to bend, then people would sacrifice tone for the increased freedom of expression a bend gives you I'd think.
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Guitars actually bend a lot farther than most horns (saxophones at least). If you want to draw that comparison, then horns should never bend and guitars should always bend. Originally Posted by Goofsus4
Here's how I see it: Vic Juris bends all the time. Russell Malone bends all the time. Pat Metheny Bends all the time. Pat Martino bends all the time (with stupid heavy string gauges!). Kurt Rosenwinkel also bends. Those guys aren't dumb.
It just seems silly to me to ignore an expressive element of your instrument if it's part of the palette you can draw from- especially for arbitrary reasons like "oh, rock guitarists do it" or "guitars should be guitars, not trombones!" If it's not the way you hear music in your head then there's no reason you have to bend, but that's not true of everybody. Why not stop worrying and just play the guitar, warts and all?Last edited by gravitas; 10-18-2010 at 10:05 AM.
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By this logic guitarists should definitely bend strings, since bending notes is something guitarists can do better than any other instrumentalist. Originally Posted by Goofsus4
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Then we may as well throw out the electric guitar Charlie Christian was credited with pioneering solos on and go back to whamming out rhythm duties with big ol' archtop hollowbodies exclusively (if we want to restrict our playing to only traditionally accepted "guitar sounds"). Originally Posted by Goofsus4
That pianist/arranger Mary Lou Williams (a woman who never received the recognition due her in the male dominated music business, being a woman) recognized there was a guy in Oklahoma City who could play saxophonist Lester Young's solo style on an electric guitar -and told John Hammond about him, who snuck him onto Benny Goodman's bandstand (who tried to stump him off by calling "Rose Room," which he figured Christian wouldn't know)- is why we're all at this web forum having this discussion now: precisely because Charlie blew like a horn on Rose Room and was hired on the spot, revolutionizing the role of the (electric) guitar in popular music ever since.
I HAVE played saxophone (and drums, piano, and trombone too). I ain't giving up trying to play "horn lines" on an electric guitar anytime soon, even though I can barely negotiate what Charlie Christian did. I remain a student of what became "jazz guitar," which started out popularly as strictly a rhythm section instrument heard largely only by the band, not the audience.Last edited by backliner; 10-18-2010 at 11:44 AM.
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