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Hi so i have been converting to economy picking from strict alternate for a about 5 or 6 months now. i cant seem to get past 16th notes at 120bpm and make it clean. When im warmed up i can probably do 125 or 127 but it gets sloppy after that and i tense up, which sucks, tryign to overcome that as well.... I have been using Brunos art of picking dvd with the exercises etc and that has been great, any pointers besides the obvious "keep practicing".
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08-23-2010 02:23 PM
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Tough to speculate without seeing you. I am not the fastest guy on the block, but since I teach, it is easy to spot inefficiencies. Relaxation and accuracy seem to be the biggest elements, once you get the technique stuff down. Good luck with it.
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No, there are no tricks, especially if you are already aware of economy picking. That is the only "secret", although many strict alternators can still easily burn 16ths at 200bpm. Try not thinking about it too much. Great technique has a way of developing unbeknownst to us. Great players don't even really know how they pick when they play- it just happens..... with years and years of heavy practice.......
Originally Posted by jazzgtrl4
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Practice slowly in front of a mirror. If you've never done that before, it's gonna feel really weird at first. Play something really easy that requires no concentration on your fret hand and watch your pick hand. Make sure that the transitions from string to string are really smooth, sweeping motions. Also, check out Frank Gambale's video if you haven't. It's really helpful for developing economy picking.
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i hate to say, after playing for over 40 years, i believe there is a cap on each individual's speed. it is a natural thing, and while you want to get it to your highest level, the super speed is just not available to everyone.
the good news is that no one really wants to hear it anyway. the people who do are other guitarists who only want to hear it to practice more to try to beat you....way different than music, more like a sport.
so get the best you can and make some great music and be happy with it (or go into boxing).
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Great point. I saw Dale Bruning play the other night here in Denver, and he's certainly not the fastest player I've seen, but he is quite possibly the smoothest and sweetest-sounding player I've heard. Originally Posted by hydra
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There is no cap on a player's speed, just a cap on their imagination for what is practicable. If you feel like your right hand can't exceed sixteenth notes at 120 bpm, that's a muscular thing, not a finesse thing. Practice tremolo.
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dale is great Originally Posted by FatJeff
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Hi thanks for everyone's insight. I definitely think its my right (picking) hand that needs the work. Its like the movement from one string to the other when going down is too much? needs too be smaller movements and more precise i guess is what im trying to say... I tense up when going faster as well as when im changing strings i get sloppy...? but ive recently started to tell myself to relax when i feel that happening. Ive never tried looking in the mirror to see what im doing and ill try doing more tremolo. Im not looking to be frank Gamble sweep and speed like that, would be nice but hey. I would like to have the option to go faster and play some bebob at faster tempos with out getting fatigued.
Last edited by jazzgtrl4; 08-24-2010 at 12:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by gravitas
opinions vary. you should push as far as you can, but it is unrealistic to think everyone can obtain the same level. speed is muscular and genetic.
i had a student once who was an absolute beginner. one lesson i was writing something down for him and i hear him playing an amazing tremelo, i look over and it is with i and m. totally natural people work for years to get this and don't come close to a kid who couldn't read happy birthday.
]there is a cap on what the individual's muscles can accomplish, otherwise every major league pitcher would throw 100 mph, every basketball player would jump like michael jordan, every boxer would hit like sonny liston, evry guitarist would pick like this guy
i don't think so.
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I definitely hear ya on that. Neither am I, but his video is great for developing efficiency and shows how to apply economy picking to many different scales. Also, I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but don't just go for broke constantly. It would be like someone maxing out every time they work out.Im not looking to be frank Gamble sweep and speed like that
What I tell my students that want to develop speed is either work on the speed building every other day, or do a three day rotation. Day one, play your speed exercises painfully slow, and be very mindful of your technique. If you practice in front of a mirror, try to make it look like you're not really doing anything. The video hydra posted is actually helpful for seeing what this should look like, though I'm still not much in favor of anchoring pick hand fingers like he does. The second day, play at a tempo that is pretty relaxed, but has you putting some momentum to what you did the day before. Day three, push your maximum tempo. Always play at a speed where you feel relaxed and in control. If that speed is 130 but you can spaz your arms and pull off 150, 130 is your max speed. This last part is crucial to not getting tired on the bop stuff.
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First of all: If you're a sane human being with all 10 fingers, and normal motor skills, then you can play as fast as you want to (within the human boundaries of course). It's a misconception that some people have it or don't have it. It just takes to things to accomplish great speed:
1. The right training/practice.
2. The right mindset for this practice.
You have to practice correct for building virtuoso technique. It's a matter of not compromising, analyzing, having patience, goal-oriented practice, and believing in you can do it, and not quitting for any reason.
Not all people have strong enough desire to build virtuoso speed, and that's the real reason why almost nobody can play 16th notes at 200 bpm. It's a practice that consist of rinse and repeat until you get there, and that can be a bumpy road with lot of obstacles. But if you believe in it, and practice the right way, you'll get there.
I used to have serious speed issues. I couldn't play 16th notes faster than 100 bpm. I consulted a virtuoso guitar player, and he pointed towards goal-oriented and uncompromizing technique practice. Within 2 years I developed faster picking than I ever thought possible (I switched from strict alternate to economy). And I used to be one of those who didn't believe I could play fast, and all that. Just go back through my old threads and see what topics I posted in 2008... something about "Speed - natural gift or hard work". That was before I received the right training. The point of all this... believe in yourself!
Playing 16th notes at 120 bpm is 480 notes per minute (npm). It is normal to have a plateau at this speed-area (480-520). That's because at this speed your hands are not playing slow nor fast. The fast stuff starts happening with 16th notes at 145-150+ bpm (around the 600 npm area).
What you need to do is to find out if your lack of speed is caused by one of these issues:
1. The left hand; tense, inaccurate, individual fingers causing problems, etc.?
2. The right hand; weak upstrokes, too big movements, forearm muscles undeveloped (a big problem for people learning to sweep or economy pick).
3. Synchronization between the hands.
It can be one or all of these problems. The most common are the right hand problem, where your forearm nerves and muscles are not developed yet. Making a long downstroke across 3-4 more strings is a tough thing to do, because you have to train your arm and coordination to stop at very precise points. It's a gradual thing, and the more you do it, the better you'll get at it. Most people think downstrokes are the easiest, and in some way, they're right. With the aid of gravity it's easier to sweep down, than up. But since the hand can go down more easily it puts another obstacle in the way, because now the hard thing to do is to make it STOP at the right place and time. That's a right hand issue, and that takes most people a long time to learn.
The second well-known problem is lack of sync between the hands. Here you need to practice odd sequences on 1-2 strings, picking every note at a slow tempo. This forces your hands to work together. I posted an exercise and a thorough explanation of all this in the "How to develop speed"-thread, where you can find it.
Also, use the to build-speed-strategies you can find on Tom Hess' website www.tomhess.net in the articles section. I used something similar to the part 1 speed-strategy with great success. But check out the part 2 article too.
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excellent post jazzgtr14
okay, we obviously have different views on this. let me just clarify my position on this. first, i must say i respect your practice ethic and agree with it totally.
1)
i do think there are caps...in fact, it is absurd to not think so. that would be believing that with enough work, a normally slow track runner could win a gold medal in the olympics, or closer to home, everyone could attain the right hand finger speed of paco de lucia, or even right on the money, use a pick as fast as shawn lane. sorry my friend , (if you are starting out without the natural gift) none of the above are happening even if you live to 500 years old and practice 10 hours a day.
all humans do not have the same muscular potential, it is a fact
2)
is 120 bpm our subjects peak? i seriously doubt it. i think somewhere in the 160 range for 16ths is the norm for a cap. some may have to work hard for that and some born with it. those born with it could certainly , with practice get way up there, maybe even pass that bumblebee guy i posted, but the normal guy, no way.
OF COURSE YOU CAN GET BETTER WITH PRACTICE.
3)
bebop chops have a lot more to do with knowing where you are going...really knowing the neck and pre hearing what you are about to play. tal, wes, kenny, acknowledged as the at least 3 of the greatest
i bet with hard work mist could get to that speed level (the idea level another matter)
4)
should 120 give up because he may not be able to reach gambale? of course not, practice as much as possible, get to your peak., then play MUSIC. i believe in hard work and ridiculous practice. there are solo pieces i worked on by chopin, mozart etc which took years to get to where i wanted them ...only by hard work.
5) i certainly don't want to discourage anyone from practice. anyone with hard work could get to the speed level you need to play any style of music. if your only goal is to be THE FASTEST in your style and you are not born with that natural gift, you might as well go for the heavyweight championship of the world, you'll have a better shot.
6)
i would love to be proved wrong, but it would take say 5 players of average speed who have played for a reasonable amount of time being transformed into
pacos or shawns through extra or different types of practice.
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Just thought I'd add my $.02 since I used to be convinced I wouldn't be able to play fast. 16ths at 120 are very easy for me now.
I think the idea that there are speed caps is unhelpful. There are virtuoso players, but it's only on the guitar (of the instruments that I'm aware of) that people talk about speed caps at such slow tempos. We won't all play as fast as Shawn Lane (as Hydra mentioned), but there's _no_ reason physiological reason folks can't play sextuplets at 120. That's a bit of a simplification, because line complexity will adjust our expectation of what is realistic at a particular speed - but if we're talking vanilla ascending/descending scale sequences on the guitar, that's a realistic expectation in my opinion.
CAJO already mentioned the key things (imo). What really helped for me was learning to "chunk" my picking motion rather than seeing a picked line as a series of built-up smaller motions. When picking a particular sequence becomes just 1 motion (mentally) it's way easier to fret and pick.
I had a teacher in college who, when I asked how to play faster, mentioned he thought some folks were just born with speed and others not. Very unhelpful, especially since I wasn't looking to be Yngwie - I just wanted to be able to play the occasional double-time bop line. If you're in the same boat, get a teacher who both: 1) can play at a tempo you consider fast; 2) is willing to work with you on developing your technique to a concrete, measurable speed; 3) can actually teach.
You may have to get an additional teacher aside from your ordinary teacher, but it will be worth it if you're really handicapped in this area. And... you will need to put in the time.
Best of luck!
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I'd agree that some part of speed is genetic, and there is a certain "natural ability" quotient that people have when they first start. But it's not sound logic to believe that because your student starts with a natural advantage of, say, 30 bpm over most beginning students (not that much in the long run), that his "cap on speed" is neccessarily higher than yours or mine. Put him beside a mediocre student for two years. If the mediocre student practices more, he'll have better technique. That's just the way it is. Originally Posted by hydra
We are lucky that we just play guitar. When you're talking about football players, basketball players, or olympic athletes, people who test the boundaries of what the entire human body is physically capable of, sure: there is definitely a genetic limit to what each and every one of us can do. But we're guitar players! We move our fingers *kind of* fast! That's not that crazy!
I think the greatest misconception about having decent, professional grade technique is that your success is dependent solely on your ability to progress physically- that playing fast depends on how strong you are, and how strong your parents' chromosomes will allow you to be. That would be something with a genetic cap. Luckily, such is not the case: we are athletes of the finer muscles. Look at the fastest players in the world ( ) and see how little their hand actually moves. Economy of motion and fluid movement = speed, not toil and brute force.
In my honest opinion, 16ths at 200 bpm is an attainable goal for anyone who wants it. It's just a matter of pruning out all of the unneccessary movement in your technique and having a rudimentary, normal degree of strength in your wrist and fingers.Last edited by gravitas; 08-26-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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Wow, thanks guys for all the help. I agree with alot of it.. CAJO. i think you pretty much nailed some of my problems with this one
2. The right hand; weak upstrokes, too big movements, forearm muscles undeveloped (a big problem for people learning to sweep or economy pick).
Except my upstrokes seem to be cleaner/easier than my downstrokes?! its the downstrokes that tend to get sloppy.
Also when you guys practice with a metronome when going faster do you only move it up by a few BPM's like one or two or by more like 5? thanks
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Here's what has worked best for me: get Fretway Metronome.
It's free, and it allows you to step a time duration to practice a given exercise with. So what I do when I practice technique exercises is set a start tempo of 60, and then tell it to increment the BPM by 2 (or sometimes 4) every ten seconds.
Nowadays I use 4 as the increment. But when I'm first getting a motion down, I use 2. And I go through the exercise a few times (starting slow then building up, ten seconds each tempo).
When I first tried to get economy picking down using this method, I separated out ascending from descending scale runs, practiced each separately, and then introduced a "turn-around". So if you're just starting out, here's a concrete exercise:
------------------------------------------7-8-10----
---------------------------------6-8-10-------------
-------------------------5-7-9----------------------
-----------------5-7-9------------------------------
---------5-7-8--------------------------------------
-5-7-8----------------------------------------------
Start at 50 bpm, playing 16th notes, and play that over and over, incrementing 2 every 10 seconds. Once you get a sense of where you speed is at when you're warmed up, adjust the exercise to suit your current ability.
One thing to note is that my training on the classical guitar has helped my left hand a lot (in terms of eliminating tension, fast deliberate movements, etc.). But then again, take that for what it's worth, I see cats who play faster than I with ostensibly way more tension. I think Gravitas nailed it when he remarked that what we're doing on the guitar ISN'T the same kind of thing Olympic athletes are doing, and that the physicality required to execute 16ths at 200 never really reaches the level where optimal technical training comes into play (i.e., you can still play some very fast stuff without having maximum relaxation). That said, the classical left-hand stuff has helped me.
I forgot to mention that if you can sweep pick, then you can do this. I suspect lots of folks find basic sweep picking fairly straight-forward to pick up, and then get befuddled when approaching scale stuff. I was one of them. But if you can move your hands fast enough to sweep a basic arpeggio you can do this stuff too!
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I don't think it would swing at that speed,Just my £0.02p
All this talk of maximum speed etc got me thinking about my other hobby,which is sea fishing,more to the point the guys that can cast over 270m.My observation was that none of these guys are good fishermen.
If one spends so much time to become good at only one part of a hobby,the rest will suffer.better to be a rounded musician that can play quick enough,than to be a one trick pony that can play very fast.Once again just my opinion.
Tom
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I think that speed as an end to itself is in fact a dead end.
I have a card on my amp, in my case and on my music stand that has a few pictures of favorite people on it and ask myself the following questions:
Does it have TASTE and work for the song? (Steve Cropper & Larry Carlton)
Does it have TASTE and make musical sense? (Pat Metheny and Wes Montgomery)
Does it have TASTE and groove? (My son Ed, a drummer who has one of the deepest pockets I know. At the University of Miami Music School they called him "the kid who swallowed a metronome".)
That's what I'm looking for in my own playing, and speed in and of itself isn't part of the equation.
That said, I do appreciate the work ethic of those players who spend hours and hours on that particular part of their music.Last edited by brian329; 08-26-2010 at 01:09 PM.
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The sloppy downstrokes are usually derived from your forearm muscles and nerves, that are not yet fully developed. A good way to deal with this problem is actually to do the opposite of what you might think... Practice upstrokes! Yes, that was not a typo... Practice your upstrokes for 10-30 min. every practice session. How? You play what you normally would (tunes, melodies, scales, arpeggios, chords, exercises, etc.), but use upstrokes only for a specific period of time. Originally Posted by jazzgtrl4
I got the idea from this from my old karate instructor. He told us when we were practicing punches, that we needed to get our hands back in guard when we'd thrown a punch. And we did that by practicing the pull-back only. This made my actual punch much faster. I then tried it for guitar, and later I discovered that many guitarists practiced this way.
Try it 15 min. per day for a month and you'll see what I'm talking about. This alone will increase your speed along with making your downstrokes better.
About how much to increase the metronome setting...
Remember, the reason that you can't play faster is that there is something, that needs correction. Don't think speed, think correct technique. If you find a flaw in your technique, slow down the tempo, correct the mistake (this takes time), then you'll get faster, because there's less disturbance in your technique. This is key.
If your current max speed is 16th notes at 120 bpm now, then try this:
- find out whats going wrong. You say it's sloppy downstrokes. Try to practice upstrokes only as I described. Then do this speed-cyclus, where you put focus on what you want to correct. Don't just repeat. Be aware of what you want to fix.
With 120 bpm max -->
1. Practice at 60 bpm (16th notes) for a week. That's 50% of your max.
2. Then increase the tempo to 75 bpm. Do this for 3 sessions in a row.
3. Increase tempo to 100 bpm. At the end of your session, go full tempo for 2-3 min. Do this for a week.
4. Increase tempo to 120 bpm. Do this for a week.
5. Measure new max bpm = IT WILL BE FASTER.
The important thing is to NOT play full speed in the slow weeks (steps 1-3). The reason you need to slow this much down and for this length, is that you need to re-programme your muscles and fingers. It takes time, and you don't want to go back to your old habits. This way you ingrain new habits, that will make your technique better.
So let's say it's a scale your are using to increase your speed with. Try this practice routine. I assume you practice this 30 min. per day:
1. 10 min. warm-up, play the scale with upstrokes only. Slow tempo.
2. 20 min. speed-practice, play the scale, be aware of flaws, ingrain new habits, tempo is according to cyclus above mentioned.
Do this 'till your through the routine, and measure your new speed. Post it here, and let us all give you a digital thumbs up .
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I agree with you. Speed in itself is nothing, and there are too many who never develop their general musicianship enough to use speed with taste. But there are others who does it very musically. My jazz heroes are Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Birelli Lagrene, Pat Metheny, George Benson, etc. I like virtouso-like horn and sax lines on guitar! Those guys use speed with taste in my opinion. Originally Posted by oilywrag
I don't think it would swing at that speed,Just my £0.02p
All this talk of maximum speed etc got me thinking about my other hobby,which is sea fishing,more to the point the guys that can cast over 270m.My observation was that none of these guys are good fishermen.
If one spends so much time to become good at only one part of a hobby,the rest will suffer.better to be a rounded musician that can play quick enough,than to be a one trick pony that can play very fast.Once again just my opinion.
Tom
On the other hand I also find, that way too many guitarists settle with average technique, and play slow all the time. Either one of the approaches are better. If your call is slow, vocal-like music then I think it would be waste of time to practice technique more than you need. But I like to be able to play fast when the solo calls for it, and I need more than average technique to play these lines!
I'm not one of those who play 3 chorus' with all 16th note runs at blazing tempi. That's not music, and people don't want to hear it. I spent about 2 years with excessive technique practice. I've played guitar since mid-90's, and I'd played for more than 12 years before I decided to develop speed. I had well-developed ears and theoretic knowledge at that point, and I was frustrated about not being able to play what I heard. I kept hearing fast lines, and I wanted to be able to play them. So I did what was nescessary to pull that off.
It's all about staying true to what music you hear and have inside you.
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100% agree. Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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Thanks everyone for the replies., Especially thanks to CAJO for the pointers, never thought to do just upstrokes to strengthen my picking hand..i started it and can see how this can help..also, jbraun002: thanks for that online metronome its great!!
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One more thing you may find helpful:
Cracking the Code: The Secrets of Shred Guitar
This guy slows down the picking technique of the world's greatest players using a cheesy little camera he calls "THE SHRED CAM." It's a very useful analogue for seeing exactly what's going on. Watch Mike Stern, Frank Gambale, Jimmy Bruno, Scotty Anderson, etc.'s picking technique in suuuuper slow motion.
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good debate everyone and most importantly, looks like our original poster got some goods to work on.
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