The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Sure, maybe Pat Martino didn't need to raise his fingers so high off the fret board, he might have learned to generate strength from a shorter height (one inch punch?). But the fact is that he didn't, most likely out of habit, and it didn't slow him down nor affect his sound adversely.

    Now, you can't prove it, but my guess is that his flailing fingers may have had something to do with his whole forceful, relentless style. I certainly won't advocate that others should do it any more than I'd encourage folks to raise their action to a ridiculous height to achieve the FG sound. But I do find players with a vigorous left hand technique to sound more compelling, certainly more dynamic.

    Then again, I like warts, so...

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Sure, maybe Pat Martino didn't need to raise his fingers so high off the fret board, he might have learned to generate strength from a shorter height (one inch punch?). But the fact is that he didn't, most likely out of habit, and it didn't slow him down nor affect his sound adversely.

    Now, you can't prove it, but my guess is that his flailing fingers may have had something to do with his whole forceful, relentless style. I certainly won't advocate that others should do it any more than I'd encourage folks to raise their action to a ridiculous height to achieve the FG sound. But I do find players with a vigorous left hand technique to sound more compelling, certainly more dynamic.

    Then again, I like warts, so...
    A couple questions:

    The first would be, what are some examples, and how do you know their left hand is “forceful.”

    Pat Metheny definitely lifts the fingers pretty high, but he also has some very unusual slurring, like slurring across strings where he’s driving a new string with his left hand.

    Pat Martino I’m not really sure I see his fingers flying around the fretboard. His pinky does, but see other conversation about pronated left hand. He doesn’t use his pinky all that much.

    The other question would be whether or not distance from the fingerboard really is synonymous with “force.” We’re talking about fractions of an inch here, so I’m not sure that having your fingers a bit higher off the fingerboard means you’re using more “force” and force is a word in a sort of allergic too. See other thread about carpal tunnel.

  4. #28

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    can one of the questions also be wtf are you talking about with the warts?

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    A couple questions:

    The first would be, what are some examples, and how do you know their left hand is “forceful.”

    Pat Metheny definitely lifts the fingers pretty high, but he also has some very unusual slurring, like slurring across strings where he’s driving a new string with his left hand.

    Pat Martino I’m not really sure I see his fingers flying around the fretboard. His pinky does, but see other conversation about pronated left hand. He doesn’t use his pinky all that much.

    The other question would be whether or not distance from the fingerboard really is synonymous with “force.” We’re talking about fractions of an inch here, so I’m not sure that having your fingers a bit higher off the fingerboard means you’re using more “force” and force is a word in a sort of allergic too. See other thread about carpal tunnel.
    Well I did mention 2 players from different fields earlier, Django and SRV. I sound different with high action guitars because I find I need to use more force with both hands, far more dynamic (not always appropriate). It's not a big deal, just my impression. Am I wrong to think/feel this?

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    can one of the questions also be wtf are you talking about with the warts?
    hehe, it's an old Chuck Barris quote from the Gong Show...

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Well I did mention 2 players from different fields earlier, Django and SRV. I sound different with high action guitars because I find I need to use more force with both hands, far more dynamic (not always appropriate). It's not a big deal, just my impression. Am I wrong to think/feel this?
    I don’t know man. But if I were going to risk the carpal tunnel, I’d want to be sure I was right.

  8. #32

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    As I understand it Django’s guitars were relatively playable. He used gauge 10 Argentine strings and setups for a Sel Mac in my experience tend to be around 2-3mm at the 12th. So not too bad. Not a
    Modern electric set up but also not Freddie Green stuff

    I would say the amount you use your pinky may be determined in part by the guitar set up. Pat Martino set up was famously heavy. Otoh double bass players use third and fourth finger together as a unit… but they also have a longer scale length.

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  9. #33

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    The SRV heavy gauge thing is half true. He tried them, but didn't keep them. His guitar tech has a youtube video talking about it.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    The SRV heavy gauge thing is half true. He tried them, but didn't keep them. His guitar tech has a youtube video talking about it.
    I heard this about the 17s.

    I think he used maybe 13s on the regular? Which is pretty heavy but not crazy heavy. And also he tuned down to Eb most of the time.

  11. #35

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    I mean... I play 3 hour gigs with 13's and I'm a hack.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    A couple questions:
    The other question would be whether or not distance from the fingerboard really is synonymous with “force.” We’re talking about fractions of an inch here, so I’m not sure that having your fingers a bit higher off the fingerboard means you’re using more “force” and force is a word in a sort of allergic too. See other thread about carpal tunnel.
    My half-baked physics brain thought about momentum instead of force. If the string is further away the finger can get more velocity, which would translate into more force when it hits the string.

    As far as strings, I'm a wimp I guess! 11s are about the highest I go, and that's only on my archtop; I use 10s on everything else. I think they sound fine, and playing with too much left hand pressure affect the intonation.
    Last edited by supersoul; 10-09-2024 at 06:41 PM.

  13. #37

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    I think it was Tuck Andress who recommended an exercise in which you fret series of notes (scales, etc.) with your left hand without picking them with your right hand. Fret the notes with the minimum pressure needed to sound the notes clearly (which is of course more than you'll need if you're picking them). The object of this study is to find out exactly how much finger pressure you need to sound notes clearly, with or without picking them, which allows you to discover how to make your playing more efficient.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick-7
    I think it was Tuck Andress who recommended an exercise in which you fret series of notes (scales, etc.) with your left hand without picking them with your right hand. Fret the notes with the minimum pressure needed to sound the notes clearly (which is of course more than you'll need if you're picking them). The object of this study is to find out exactly how much finger pressure you need to sound notes clearly, with or without picking them, which allows you to discover how to make your playing more efficient.
    This is a good one!

    Slight variation that my classical teacher had me do when I was having carpal tunnel problems was to not even try to fret the note. Just rest the finger on the string like a harmonic or something, but just in the correct place for fretting rather than the harmonic. You go like that for a while and start accidentally fretting notes. So it's a really good reminder of how little work your left hand actually needs to be doing when you're playing.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    This is a good one!

    Slight variation that my classical teacher had me do when I was having carpal tunnel problems was to not even try to fret the note. Just rest the finger on the string like a harmonic or something, but just in the correct place for fretting rather than the harmonic. You go like that for a while and start accidentally fretting notes. So it's a really good reminder of how little work your left hand actually needs to be doing when you're playing.
    Actually, now that you say that, I think that Tuck did not say "fret the notes with the minimum pressure needed to sound the notes clearly," only to apply enough pressure to be able to hear them (at all). When you do that, you find that it doesn't take much pressure to produce a sound and you have probably been applying more then you need to, which makes playing more stressful and difficult than it needs to be. Any sort of physical and/or mental tension can adversely affect your performance.

  16. #40

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    I'm doing the video exercise, mentioned in the original thread post, 5 mins a day, I'll see how it progresses.

    Edit: I've slightly changed the exercise, I'm using phrases I like, not the G Major scale in the video. (Currently, I using the Dexterity first 4 bars.)

    This video below:

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoul
    My half-baked physics brain thought about momentum instead of force. If the string is further away the finger can get more velocity, which would translate into more force when it hits the string.
    It’s acceleration, not velocity, that affects force - but that’s kinetic force on a moving object. Newton’s second law is the source: force = mass X acceleration. This doesn’t apply to static force.

    Fretting involves static force generated by fingers against stationary strings and frets. Muscle contraction generates this force, and there’s none until contact. No matter how high you raise your fingers, they close down on the string(s) at the same velocity once they accelerate from rest to their maximum speed, which happens within a mm or so and then stays constant. Your muscles only generate the force needed to move the fingers against the resistances in joints, tendons, and the many tissues (skin, muscle, etc) being stretched or compressed until they contact the string(s). Look at your fingers as you curl them, and you’ll see the tissues over the knuckles being stretched while those underneath are compressed. Once they hit resistance (ie the strings & board), they generate fretting force. You only need enough to hold the strings against the frets - squeezing harder than that does nothing but ruin intonation.

    Lifting fingers high above the strings just screws with your timing. You have to start every move further ahead of the beat to get the notes to fall where you want them. It’s really physical latency.

    Watch Freddie Green in the few videos available. His action is sky high and his strings are clothesline. But his fingers stay close to the board. Watch him throughout this - especially at about 17:15 -

    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 10-10-2024 at 07:42 AM.

  18. #42

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    When I was in the middle of trying to get my left hand fingers together my teacher talked about the importance of having the fingers close to the strings using a preparation sort of playing. But then some time later he taught a different type movement in which one hammers on every note particularly with scales leaving some room between the strings and fingers. This confused me to say the least because you can't have it both ways. Either the fingers are close to the strings or there is some room. When I asked my teacher about this he kind of shrugged off and mentions its like quantum mechanics (lol!).

    In any case I assume these two ways to go about it are to be practiced seperatedly. Having fingers close to the strings seem really helpful for polyphonic playing (and everything else). While the hammer on trick seems more geared toward single notes.

  19. #43

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    Maybe it’s good to practice both? Idk


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  20. #44

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    I played around with the exercise a bit over the last couple days. Seems it's also about finger independence. Like that thing where you keep each finger on the string until the next time it's needed.

    Then I watched my hand while doing some noodling. Seems my fingers stay pretty close by nature. The pinky too, as long as it has something coming right up for it to do. If it doesn't then it gets flappy.

    Today I thought I'd take a closer look at Martino. Always a good idea to spend some time with Pat, and nice way to spend a Saturday morn. I slowed down some places where he seemed particularly flappy. Actually, it seems to me that most of that is his pinky when not in use. He just gets it well out of the way and it kinda mirrors the 3rd finger out in space. Other three fingers stay pretty close most of the time.Didn't really see the jack-hammer. Maybe it changed a bit as he aged. I was looking at him at about 70 years. Lighter strings than at 20?

    He's an interesting one to watch RE 3 finger VS 4. Neck totally parallel to floor in the clip I was into. Thumb solidly on the side of neck but not fretting. Pronation (if that's the correct term:) check. He uses the pink a lot more than a lot of other guys do with that posture.

    I've practiced many different things over the years. It's all good. Do everything you can think of.
    Just don't hurt yourself.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I played around with the exercise a bit over the last couple days. Seems it's also about finger independence. Like that thing where you keep each finger on the string until the next time it's needed.
    Yes, that's what I was thinking too, it's similar, Howard Alden taught that exercise in a workshop about 20 years ago. He was taught the exercise by his teacher.