The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Lucky you! Seems I'm always in some sort of guitar related pain, fingertips, tendinitis, carpal tunnel, tennis (guitar?) elbow, neck and even back pain. Heck, I even have pain on the side of my index finger where I grip the pick! I've tried changing technique, posture etc to no avail.

    It's OK, I don't expect any sympathy, not even from other guitar players!
    Or maybe, just maybe, I’m came to this conclusion because I got carpal tunnel syndrome at 22 and still get tingles in my fingers when I hold my arm wrong and figured no healthy practice would cause that.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    [...]
    * I also do not cross my legs when playing, do not give cross looks at the drummer, and avoid crossing paths with singers and harmonica players I have not heard perform.
    But did you meet Legba at the Crossroads?



    EDIT: Interesting that on all the iconic photos Johnson shows a rather classical hand position. He is never wearing a bottleneck on those pictures but I could imagine that his hand position has to do with the fact that the bottleneck works best when held parallel to the frets because most of the time you'll play chord tones.

    Last edited by Bop Head; 10-07-2024 at 11:44 PM.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I smiled at the picture of the crossed fingers on Christian's bebop fingering video; sure, you don't want to cross your fingers on the finger board, but do you want to cross the bones in your forearm* using TOP, even a little?
    I'm sticking with (TBS)4F (Thumb Behind Supinated Four Fingers).
    Attachment 116279
    * I also do not cross my legs when playing, do not give cross looks at the drummer, and avoid crossing paths with singers and harmonica players I have not heard perform.
    The actual amount of anatomical pronation in the forearm is also governed by the position of the neck. Obviously if you have TBS with the guitar on the right knee you may end up with the opposite issue.


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  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Lucky you! Seems I'm always in some sort of guitar related pain, fingertips, tendinitis, carpal tunnel, tennis (guitar?) elbow, neck and even back pain. Heck, I even have pain on the side of my index finger where I grip the pick! I've tried changing technique, posture etc to no avail.

    It's OK, I don't expect any sympathy, not even from other guitar players!
    I’ve had many issues over the years and in general found ways to fix them. You don’t actually always have to suffer for your art.

    My favourite was a weird lump that appeared on my wrist about ten years ago. I suspected it might be due to my pressing down too hard (I was playing a lot of swing at the time with 15 top string iirc). It didn’t hurt but….weird.


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  6. #80

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    Just had a meeting cancelled, so picked up my guitar and tried to remember some of the discussion in this thread. As "usual", a rough and ready vid c/w distorted laptop mic sound, but it's about the fingering, right?

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Just had a meeting cancelled, so picked up my guitar and tried to remember some of the discussion in this thread. As "usual", a rough and ready vid c/w distorted laptop mic sound, but it's about the fingering, right?
    Nice, you seem to have a strong little finger and big(ish) fingers. I do too, so I use the little finger.

    But, we're all physically different.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    Just had a meeting cancelled, so picked up my guitar and tried to remember some of the discussion in this thread. As "usual", a rough and ready vid c/w distorted laptop mic sound, but it's about the fingering, right?
    Thanks for giving it a go.

    That’s a good start with the three fingered stuff, stick with it, sounding good ;-)

    Ok, so more seriously, anything unfamiliar feels weird compared to something familiar. I didn’t start doing the TOP/three fingered thing for comfort or ease, at least not at first, but because I thought it might sound good, because a lot of people who sound good do it. (Correlation is not causation.)

    You might also find it sometimes more practical to do with different fingerings.

    It may feel a bit like ‘why??’ but despite your grumbling (haha) you actually manage it really well and I like the way you sound doing it. Fat tone! Maybe a touch more swing too? I’m biased of course.

    It probably feels a bit lacking in definition to normal, but it sounds really good and I don’t think it sounds sloppily executed at all, apart from the dim7 arp (which I think will be fine after a little slow practice).

    What I’ve found is that the way you feel it sounds and the way it actually sounds are sometimes not the same thing.

    You gain a bit a little more definition in the four fingered examples and they do sound good, but they also sound a little less earthy.

    So, I do think it sounds a bit different with the more three fingered fingering. I prefer it but that may well be selection bias obviously….

    anyone else?

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    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-08-2024 at 08:10 AM.

  9. #83

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    I tell you what would really help the debate is if you could do an audio recording of both approaches and not tell us which was which. I wonder if I could actually tell.


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  10. #84

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    Oh another point - just about everyone uses their pinky sometimes. I have made this point several times but it does keep being lost.

    Wes and Grant Green for example would hammer 3-4-3 very often.

    It boils down to hand position more than having a vendetta against the pinky. The pinky loses equality to the other three fingers compared to CG, but it doesn’t become useless.

    And speaking of hand position it’s similar to mine when doing this (from my video above), which is not quite there. Both of us could do with pronating a touch more when doing this type of thing and having thumb more towards the nut and maybe a little higher. Your thumb is quite mobile throughout the video though and you do go into that position at times.

    If you are interested (I doubt it) I would suggest playing with it a bit more - you may still hate it but you may find some things in it that might be interesting or helpful. As I say I think you sound good doing it.


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    Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-08-2024 at 07:57 AM.

  11. #85

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    I did do this one before I went away. I think there’s a difference but it’s quite subtle. Can one tell which is which?

    Stream Test by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

    (Hope link works)


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  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I did do this one before I went away. I think there’s a difference but it’s quite subtle. Can one tell which is which?

    Stream Test by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

    (Hope link works)


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    44sec to 119sec sounds better to my ears.

  13. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The actual amount of anatomical pronation in the forearm is also governed by the position of the neck. Obviously if you have TBS with the guitar on the right knee you may end up with the opposite issue.


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    I'm not quite clear what pronation means when talking about hand positions. I assume it refers to the hand being bent out like spiderman casting a web.

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I'm not quite clear what pronation means when talking about hand positions. I assume it refers to the hand being bent out like spiderman casting a web.
    Violin fingers.

    Classical technique the middle finger should be roughly parallel to the frets with the other fingers as close to parallel as possible, accounting for their natural curve toward the middle.

    Pronation is when the palm closes a bit on the neck and the thumb is higher. This is really bad if you try and keep your fingers parallel to the frets because you get a bend in the wrist and stretches between fingers, but if you let your fingers come at the frets at an angle, then you'll see your wrist straighten out.

    Google a picture of violin hand position and you'll see the difference versus classical technique immediately. If you look at, say, Peter Bernstein or Eric Clapton, it'll look much more like the violinist than like the classical guitarist.

  15. #89

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    Search YouTube enough and someone's done a vid on this exact subject:


  16. #90

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    pronation means the hand is turning palm down as if dropping something

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by bediles
    Search YouTube enough and someone's done a vid on this exact subject:

    I mean I already posted mine lol

    I think it’s pretty clear - there’s arrows



    The relevant bit is 2:46 ish


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  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I mean I already posted mine lol

    I think it’s pretty clear - there’s arrows

    HA! My apologies, present company excluded.

    Follow the arrows to three fingered bliss.
    Last edited by bediles; 10-08-2024 at 12:36 PM.

  19. #93

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    Guess who?

    Three finger less ergonomic?-4-fingers-good-png

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    Guess who?

    Three finger less ergonomic?-4-fingers-good-png
    Allan

    Everything about his technique is distinctive including the way he picks and his left hand posture.

    (Also it’s a Carvin)


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  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    Guess who?

    Three finger less ergonomic?-4-fingers-good-png
    He (?) is not wearing his shirt properly and therefore should not be allowed to play guitar in public.

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    Violin fingers.

    Classical technique the middle finger should be roughly parallel to the frets with the other fingers as close to parallel as possible, accounting for their natural curve toward the middle.

    Pronation is when the palm closes a bit on the neck and the thumb is higher. This is really bad if you try and keep your fingers parallel to the frets because you get a bend in the wrist and stretches between fingers, but if you let your fingers come at the frets at an angle, then you'll see your wrist straighten out.

    Google a picture of violin hand position and you'll see the difference versus classical technique immediately. If you look at, say, Peter Bernstein or Eric Clapton, it'll look much more like the violinist than like the classical guitarist.
    Some people play guitar as well as fiddle.

    And always keep your thumb behind the capo.


  23. #97

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    It seems I'm prone to a bit of pronation, but it's all completely unconscious and unplanned because after hearing Jimi the man I just grabbed my first electric guitar with glee and literally attacked the poor thing until it yielded the sounds I wanted to hear. Never had any lessons, just determination, and never thought about whether one "should" do this or that. Sliding the first finger or shifting the whole hand up and down to reach adjacent notes, however, seemed like something to avoid (and mostly still does).

    I'm not aware (ie "observant") of my body when playing, but I'd say that in music with a strong, funky groove, it's mostly 3 digit stuff, mainly because the little "auxiliary" pinky isn't strong enough to transmit the energy. Conversely, when playing "faux classical", that little bro sees a lot of action due to the necesssary stretches; thumb usually politely outta sight.

    For the rest, it's very much in-between, although I will say it's always wise to listen to people who have ears, so Christian may have something there which deserves exploring. Hmm, "phat"....Not gonna happen though in the case of the So What riff