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Originally Posted by Peter C
I find there’s a pretty bright line between people who stretch between 1 and 2 and people who stretch between 2 and 3.
Some people have a hard time with Live Long and Prosper, right?
I’ll occasionally play the notes there but with the stretch between 1 and 2. I play more like the CAGED fingerings. I’d wager those are more common with the general public too.
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10-06-2024 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter C
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Wow, surprised! By the way, pamosmusic, that was a genuine enquiry.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
Part of this is just front teaching. Not everyone is wired the same way so mechanically some people just don’t do stretches or do some stretches better than others. To a point, everyone should work on that stuff, but past that point it can be unhealthy to push it. It’s interesting.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Which is irrelevant to the TOP (thumb over pronated) technique because if you are doing it right, you shouldn’t be stretching the hand at all.
With TOP in my experience, it’s mostly 1st and 3rd. 2nd solves problems.
I start scale fingerings with finger 2 or 4 by and large. Peter C’s video is a three note per string fingering which I have practiced in the past, but tend not to use.
I know some teachers who feel 3nps fingerings are a bad idea, but others who advocate them. They are popular with the shred heads for mechanical reasons.
For my part I’d suggest my fingerings map to common chord shapes more obviously, which can be helpful. These are also the shapes that are practical for TOP.
(There’s also 3nps non shifting which has a unison between the G and B string, and were the favoured scale positions of Allan Holdsworth, but that’s another story.)
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Vai is very TOP in general. He does sometimes shift his thumb position but otw it’s classic rock and roll. He does like 1st and 3rd combinations a LOT if you watch his left hand carefully, with the 3rd used to finger minor 3rds on a string etc.
The thumb behind is used more for three nps legato fingerings unsurprisingly, so we see it even more markedly with Satriani.
The Zeppelin/EVH fan on one side, the Holdsworth side on the other haha
And speaking of EVH, classic TOP but with the pinky used to extend the 1/3 blues box shapes, something also used a lot by Vai of course. I think he pronates the hand a little less when he plays that sort of stretch legato stuff.
I’d also count Eric Johnson as a TOP player. His thumb position is quite weird actually - really far back but not always over the neck. Like most he shifts to thumb behind for chords (Peter Bernstein does that too for instance.)
All these players use shifts a LOT
Thumb is usually quite mobile for TOP players, most often for chord grips, and bends and muting for the rock players especially. I think with Eric and EVH it’s also about negotiating the cutaway on the strat.
Interesting thing about Allan Holdsworth is even though he is very much a four fingered player and so on, and I wouldn’t describe him as a TOP player, he is a bit more pronated than more modern legato players by and large. His thumb often says hi.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-06-2024 at 04:58 PM.
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My experience is similar to ccroft's: you picked up a guitar and had at it. Everyone had their own way of resolving (or not!) technical hurdles.
Pamosmusic, I had to look up that quote and I have to say that I haven't seen Star Trek since I was a nipper; not part of my culture. Gotta say that gesture is easier to do at will with my right hand than my left. Is that a thing? I really didn't know.
Bottom line, don't do the Eric Johnson thing if it hurts; do your own thing (ie, what's right for your hands) and if necssary, find a teacher who will help you discover what that is.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
I feel like people probably assume I grew up playing in a conservatoire or something, but neither of my parents played, there was exactly one music store for lessons in the county, the first full song I learned was Sweet Home Alabama and I played classic rock in a band in high school too. I did have a really good first teacher who was a shredder dude, so I probably had a better start than most in that respect. Still not a lot of minute mechanical stuff though.
I’d wager Christian’s experience was probably similar in that whole “pick it up and play it” thing. The rub is …
Bottom line, don't do the Eric Johnson thing if it hurts; do your own thing (ie, what's right for your hands) and if necssary, find a teacher who will help you discover what that is.
Pamosmusic, I had to look up that quote and I have to say that I haven't seen Star Trek since I was a nipper; not part of my culture. Gotta say that gesture is easier to do at will with my right hand than my left. Is that a thing? I really didn't know.Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-06-2024 at 05:42 PM.
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I had regular classical lessons for about six months when I started, so not exactly. The finger per fret/thumb behind stuff was inculcated very early.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-06-2024 at 06:25 PM.
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I feel I’ve relearned the guitar about four times now. It gets addictive.
Re teaching. There’s so many trade offs.
Even with classical stuff.
Pinky for the third fret on E and B strings or third? Stabilises hand angle, and better for polyphonic playing, but harder to get kids to remember the exception and not do it for every string. But then you hit a difficulty spike later haha. Can’t win.
They get really good at one finger a fret after a year. It’s hard to break the rule when they have to play fretted basses in two part music. Or second position haha. OMG.
Pluck with thumb to start, tirando or apoyando fingers? Apoyando can end up with the thumb disappearing down the sound hole as they tug on the strings. It is hard then for them to unlearn apoyando for everything and instead default to tirando, which is what I was taught for that formative period and mostly do. Good tirando harder to teach, high wrist angle etc?
Thumb rest stroke ala Wes is a good sound, good preparation for plectrum playing (which I often avoid due to pick down the hole shenanigans), and mechanically easy but has no place in classical right hand. Thumb free stroke then a struggle as with the tirando/apoyando situation, fingers altogether unfamiliar. Fingers often stuck under the instrument in any case ala Jim Mullen. Arm often brought much too far over the guitar in any case, with the shoulder in an awkward position. Much nagging.
Left knee or right knee? Footstool (another thing to remember!), left knee and twisted spine, or slightly disadvantaged position for CG left hand? Will they be playing CG in two years anyway?
Most of it is fixing as we go along, refining as we understand the student and their goals. It’s endless.
Pick your battles…. Anyway I’m meant to be on holiday lol.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 10-06-2024 at 06:29 PM.
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I do think the basic ‘grab and whack’ TOP technique has little potential to go wrong compared to thumb behind. A flawed halfway version of thumb behind technique can lead to injury. If you are going to do it, really understand what you are doing and/or get a good classical teacher.
Posture and angle of the wrist are importantly. For example a collapsed carpal tunnel during playing can lead to issues and this is a problem if the instrument is too low down in right knee position and a classical left hand position is attempted. Classical style posture fixes this problem entirely.
But TOP players seem to keep going and going. It’s biomechanically sound for a number of reasons.
The joke is I teach exactly the sort of halfway house I’ve been disavowing to kids. I keep an eye on the wrist and I’m not too fussed about thumb position. We aren’t doing stretches for the first few years.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I would say the exception to this is that TOP style playing encourages fretting with the thumb which is totally fine for some but for others leads to typists wrist (the reverse of the wrist bend we’re usually looking for but equally good at collapsing the carpal tunnel).
And yeah if your wrist is bent, you can elevate the neck of the guitar and watch that bad boy straighten out. Which is a problem for folks not playing with a strap or who don’t want to look like huge dorks. When I play steel string, I put it on the right leg, but cross my leg to elevate it.Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-06-2024 at 08:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Peter C
You should be able to get anywhere on the fretboard from where you are without having to think about it. So for example, if you're playing the high C scale note on the top E string with your pinky and want to play notes higher up on the fretboard, how will you get to them? It will be ackward. You'll also have trouble playing non-diatonic lines without changing your fingerings and your phrasing will tend to sound mechanical.
You'd be better off playing the scale starting from the low C on the A string on up to the C on the 13th fret of the B string. How would you finger that? There is not one right answer to that question, it should depend on how you want to phrase the notes you play, which is why you should make music of out of scales rather than practice them in a rote manner.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Go, Man, Go!Last edited by Mick-7; 10-06-2024 at 08:23 PM.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Plot twist: play C major starting on C3, 8th fret of 6th string and get to top G on the 1st string without sliding. Suggested fingering: strings 6-3 124; 2 123; 1 1234. I will only slide if there's no other alternative, but that's just me.
Mick7 silly boy, that was just an example of a beginner's 2 octave, 3 nps run. Where can we see clips that illustrate your ideas?
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Skibidi
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Probably not completely relevant to most bebop situations, lol, but how about a diminished 7 arpeggio (minor 3rd intervals) from Ab on (4th fret) 6th string to high F (13th fret) on 1st string, sans pinky? I just tried it and no thanks.
I look at cellists and think, yeah.
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I find that 3NPS isn't the most efficient fingering when playing most chromatic phrases. (See below)
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Originally Posted by Peter C
But this sort of stuff is standard in Manouche jazz circles. Again a spot of pinky is often quite useful for getting you out of trouble, and I’ve seen people play the diagonal 2ps diminished shape with both the 3rd finger and pinky.
This is not the important issue for me, it’s how your fretting hand is set up that governs the way your fingerings will work.
This guy is very TOP, mostly three fingers but a little bit of pinky. Poetry in motion. You can absolutely play shredding stuff this way. Diminished run at 0:33
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Originally Posted by Peter C
fifth position: 1 to 4
sixth position: 1 to 4
seventh position: 1 to 4, shift to tenth and 1 to 4
tenth position: 3
tenth position: 1 to 4
Right?
And to your point, it’s a huge arpeggio so it isn’t super devastating to me if I can’t play it that quick. Nice to be able to make those shifts though
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Dunno whats so hard about using 4 fingers, sure trumpet players have to use 3, but piano players can use 10! Actually, trumpet or piano, in their own way, have examples of great players who play rings around most guitarists. You're not gonna sound like Oscar Peterson, or Clifford Brown with only 3 fingers on the guitar.
Heavy chromaticism with lots of enclosures is just easier with 4 fingers.... if you're into that sort of thing...
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
Maybe it’s not about what’s easy, but what might sound better and groove more. Or perhaps some people are more curious about the physical aspects of playing the instrument.
Some are a bit “if it ain’t broke so don’t fix it.” And actually I tend towards that myself. Mostly we’d like to get to some music.
There’s always more directions and things to explore in music than we have time to, and reaction is often to be dismissive of stuff that doesn’t appeal. I do it myself (but trying to less so.)
So…. Most players today are more schooled and tend to thumb behind. In earlier decades players tended to more TOP. It’s a fairly natural way to play the guitar if you haven’t had technical instruction - grab the neck in your hand. Most of us teachers sound a lot of time nagging kids not to do this.
And yet, it forms an effective and remarkably consistent left hand approach for many of the greatest players of all time. It seems odd to me people would dismiss that as not important or sometimes as ‘bad technique’. (George Benson bad technique? give me a break - there’s your Oscar of the guitar.)
You could write a decent history of jazz guitar just with the TOP players ….
I’m not saying we all have to emulate it. It’s good to know about it though.
Heavy chromaticism with lots of enclosures is just easier with 4 fingers.... if you're into that sort of thing...
Not if you understand what it is you are trying to play and not just reading pitches note by note from a chart which will never sound right.
It’s not specific to the TOP/thumb other thing, but I go into a bit of discussion on how to finger bop chromaticism on guitar in this video
It can be done either way.
I think people say stuff like this because they think bop lines need to fingered positionally. Actually I’d always say bop fingerings need to be harmonic.
Which means for example enclosures are fingered along the length on one string in relation to the target note. This cannot be done without shifting.
This can also be done either with four or three fingers with the aid of slides. It’s similar for the bop scales and chromatic runs etc.
Take the first few bars of hot house. That chromatic run can be managed easily with three fingers and if you slide from the ‘and’ to the beat it swings.
You have to understand how to phrase chromaticism. Playing with more slides can help that even when you have sufficient fingers to play with a separate finger on each. I don’t think I’ll ever go full grab and whack three fingers (I was ruined, society is to blame) but it does teach me a lot.
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