Fingering: Leavitt v. Larsen

[pamosmusic]

I don't think I understand the discussion.

I just don't find scale fingerings helpful when I'm actually playing a song. Maybe Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music.

I am aware that Warren Nunes did play out of his patterns, but he used a lot of triads as well. Of course, he sounded great and he had an individual style which I think had something to do with his pattern based thinking.

Say you're trying to get Donna Lee up to 220bpm. How will 3nps (or any alternative fingering) actually help? Seems to me you have to look at the melody and figure out a unique fingering which will work at that speed for those notes -- and if you're not an adept sweep picker you probably have to adjust the left hand fingering to accommodate the needs of the pick.

BTW, that was an essential element of how Warren played. He thought very carefully about how to accommodate the needs of the pick. Refingering, pull-offs and a unique pick were elements of his system.

Last night, my big band called West Coast Blues and counted it off around 180 bpm (Wes' original was around 150). Guitar has the melody throughout in that chart and at that tempo, the fingering had better work. I don't know for sure how Wes fingered it, but he didn't use his pinkie except for octaves and chords. He certainly wasn't thinking 3nps. And, I don't see how 3nps can help. I have an open mind if someone can explain it.

Yeah I don’t think it does.

Henry mentioned organizing the fingerboard with no gaps and fingerings from every root and that makes sense.

I don’t use the 3nps patterns, but i love taking tunes like Donna Lee and playing them very strictly in positions. Christian has looked askance at me on that one for some time, but it’s an exercise, and the benefits of positions and patterns and stuff are that they’re a way to systematically work through alternative fingerings.

But it would be important to note that, while you’d get a lot of fingerings for useful pieces of vocabulary, none of those positions would necessarily be the best fingering for the whole tune.

[jazznylon]

I went from 12 positions to 5. Too much things to worry about, I rather keep it simple. That said I also include the single string thing (Goodrick) and the triads (Fewell) to try to cover the gaps. No need to go overboard with the fretboard like I did in the past

[Mick-7]

Well yeah … but if my G major scale goes G A B … and I put a chromatic note between G and A then the economy picking is going, no? Down up down up … I guess I could start it on the up stroke and get back on track, but what if there’s a chromatic note on the next string, or I only play two of the notes and then jump a third?

I don’t know.

3nps scales are great and everything Henry mentions makes perfect sense to me but “facilitating economy picking” never felt like a particularly compelling case for them.

Um, I think my comment to Henry is what started this debate: "That's ironic because it is the main reason that Frank Gambale uses a 3nps system - to facilitate sweep-picking." You just changed "sweep picking" to "economy picking," which is alternate picking, isn't it? (I sometimes get the terms mixed up.)

I posted the attached speed picking lesson from Gambale in another thread. In it he explains why he uses the 3nps system, he says, "The best thing about playing your scales with this 3 notes per string idea is that every scale has only one picking pattern. So, the right hand comes together very quickly!"

[pamosmusic]

You just changed "sweep picking" to "economy picking," which is alternate picking, isn't it? (I sometimes get the terms mixed up.)

No, economy picking is sort of the general term for when you pick in the direction of the string change. Sweeping is the same idea, but sometimes treated as more specific for more swept arpeggio type things. Same technique though, and sometimes used interchangeably.

So those 3nps scales would give you down up down down up down etc. But again, only when you play them in succession with no chromatic notes.

Anyway ... Gambale would know better than me. I've just never quite gotten the logic.

[Mick-7]

No, economy picking is sort of the general term for when you pick in the direction of the string change. Sweeping is the same idea, but sometimes treated as more specific for more swept arpeggio type things. Same technique though, and sometimes used interchangeably.

So those 3nps scales would give you down up down down up down etc. But again, only when you play them in succession with no chromatic notes.

Anyway ... Gambale would know better than me. I've just never quite gotten the logic.

So, Gambale is not rigid about the 3np rule, he does play more (or less) then 3 notes per string at times. However, in general he strives to use a down-stroke for ascending string changes and an up-stroke for descending string changes (what you called economy picking). Exactly how he achieves that with chromatic lines I don't know, I presume he covers it in his more advanced picking lessons.

[pamosmusic]

So, Gambale is not rigid about the 3np rule, he does play more (or less) then 3 notes per string at times. However, in general he strives to use a down-stroke for ascending string changes and an up-stroke for descending string changes (what you called economy picking). Exactly how he achieves that with chromatic lines I don't know, I presume he covers it in his more advanced picking lessons.

Cecil Alexander has talked about this in some stuff on Instagram. Not super deep dives. And it’s the Benson Picking thing so it’s a little different but lots of economy picking involved.

[robocoptick]

sweeping plus hybrid picking.

[bediles]

Another example of mixing in economy to make this ambitious transcription happen.

[henryrobinett]

I don't think I understand the discussion.

I just don't find scale fingerings helpful when I'm actually playing a song. Maybe Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music.

I am aware that Warren Nunes did play out of his patterns, but he used a lot of triads as well. Of course, he sounded great and he had an individual style which I think had something to do with his pattern based thinking.

Say you're trying to get Donna Lee up to 220bpm. How will 3nps (or any alternative fingering) actually help? Seems to me you have to look at the melody and figure out a unique fingering which will work at that speed for those notes -- and if you're not an adept sweep picker you probably have to adjust the left hand fingering to accommodate the needs of the pick.

BTW, that was an essential element of how Warren played. He thought very carefully about how to accommodate the needs of the pick. Refingering, pull-offs and a unique pick were elements of his system.

Last night, my big band called West Coast Blues and counted it off around 180 bpm (Wes' original was around 150). Guitar has the melody throughout in that chart and at that tempo, the fingering had better work. I don't know for sure how Wes fingered it, but he didn't use his pinkie except for octaves and chords. He certainly wasn't thinking 3nps. And, I don't see how 3nps can help. I have an open mind if someone can explain it.

I don't understand either. Huh? 3NPS is merely a reference, not bible study. I don't understand the triads comment either. Triad arpeggios I use are inside the scale patterns. Personally I never play arpeggios out of chord boxes.ut you know, that's just me and what I have my students do. Of course any fingering ifor snog like Donna Lee s based on fretboard efficiency, not holding on doggedly to scale patterns. The 3NPS allow me to see and reference the fretboard clearly and efficiently, not to hold on to unusual fingering JUST BECAUSE they're inside the 3NPS patterns. I'm totally not understanding this.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I don’t think it does.

Henry mentioned organizing the fingerboard with no gaps and fingerings from every root and that makes sense.

I don’t use the 3nps patterns, but i love taking tunes like Donna Lee and playing them very strictly in positions. Christian has looked askance at me on that one for some time, but it’s an exercise, and the benefits of positions and patterns and stuff are that they’re a way to systematically work through alternative fingerings.

There’s no askance looking going on. Thanks to my very poor peripheral vision thanks to my varifocals.

I mean if you want to practice your little nerdy poindexter positions instead of playing the guitar like a cool jazz pirate, that’s entirely your choice.

But yeah I mean practicing anything is good probably? I have spent some part of my life playing bebop in position before I looked at the jazz pirates of the world and realised that some things can in fact be delegated to vibes and that your ears know stuff and your body and instrument are not the enemy. We are physical beings, not brains in jars operating the musical equivalent of a printer

So if anyone asks me ‘5 positions, 7 positions, CAGED or 3nps?’ My answer will probably be ‘yes, sure, why not? However I need you to learn this Charlie Parker head by ear for next week.’ And magically, students work out fingerings that work and sound good and swing! Hooray for them.

But I note that Mr Alden said words to the effect of ‘professional musicians don’t have time to practice loads of scales because they are too busy learning music.’ Which I agree with. If a student can play the notes of say A melodic minor in every position I leave them alone honestly. If you can’t, it's worth looking at. But despite the howls of protest it's maybe not a massive deal breaker if you can't.

It's worse to not know any tunes.

Scale fingerings are good to get to know your instruments but honestly any system will probably get you there. )And three fingers diagonal is also a system, despite the propaganda by Big Guitar.)

Find me a practical fingering or two for actual music and I’ll probs go with that. I’m a simple man. I like comfort tv while doomscrolling Reddit.


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[pamosmusic]

There’s no askance looking going on. Thanks to my very poor peripheral vision thanks to my varifocals.

I mean if you want to practice your little nerdy poindexter positions instead of playing the guitar like a cool jazz pirate, that’s entirely your choice.

But yeah I mean practicing anything is good probably? I have spent some part of my life playing bebop in position before I looked at the jazz pirates of the world and realised that some things can in fact be delegated to vibes and that your ears know stuff and your body and instrument are not the enemy. We are physical beings, not brains in jars operating the musical equivalent of a printer

So if anyone asks me ‘5 positions, 7 positions, CAGED or 3nps?’ My answer will probably be ‘yes, sure, why not? However I need you to learn this Charlie Parker head by ear for next week.’ And magically, students work out fingerings that work and sound good and swing! Hooray for them.

But I note that Mr Alden said words to the effect of ‘professional musicians don’t have time to practice loads of scales because they are too busy learning music.’ Which I agree with. If a student can play the notes of say A melodic minor in every position I leave them alone honestly. If you can’t, it's worth looking at. But despite the howls of protest it's maybe not a massive deal breaker if you can't.

It's worse to not know any tunes.

Scale fingerings are good to get to know your instruments but honestly any system will probably get you there. )And three fingers diagonal is also a system, despite the propaganda by Big Guitar.)

Find me a practical fingering or two for actual music and I’ll probs go with that. I’m a simple man. I like comfort tv while doomscrolling Reddit.


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Thousands of posts on this forum, and this is without a doubt your finest work.

[robocoptick]

It's worse to not know any tunes.

.


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worse still to not write any tunes.

[henryrobinett]

Too lazy to quote or direct this to specific posters. I’m also not a fan of economy picking. It never made a lot of sense to me. But honestly probably as much sense as alternate, which is what I use. Now I just play with a lot more whatever. Legato? Hammer/pulloffs? You just gotta play music. Technical stuff was done years ago.

It never made sense to play a downstroke just because I’m going to another string. So for 3nps it’s Down, Up, Down/Up, Down, Up/DOWN etc. it’s ALTERNATE picking. It just made more sense. Less thinking. Like a motor.

And yes after awhile it doesn’t matter what you use as long AS YOUR MIND knows it like it knows your name. No thinking. It’s just a means to KNOW the fretboard.


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[rpjazzguitar]

They don’t sound the same. If you want the sort of jackhammer attack that Warren Nunes had you need to pick alternate. Sweep picking can sound more airy or ethereal, but not necessarily. Chuck Wayne had that floaty sound, but Chico Pinheiro, who uses a version of economy picking, does not.
As a practical matter, though, I don’t think many players make the decision about picking style based on sound. Rather one style or the other feels more comfortable to the player. People’s hands are ennervated differently, so this is not at all a surprise. You can see this if you look at how different people grip a pencil. It also probably depends on which style you learn first.

[henryrobinett]

For me I’ve tried, and I don’t think about it, but I did years ago, was to downstroke on the note I wanted to accent; normally the downbeat. So I tried to accommodate my downstrokes and upstrokes in a musical way. The idea of economy or playing down every time you went to another string made no MUSICAL sense. And it didn’t sound right to my ears. That said I like the way Adam Rogers does it. Still sometimes his phrasing is interesting because of it. Kind of cool. For me it’s a question of phrasing and how it swings. Not that I’m a great purveyor of that AT ALL. But more often than not, to me, guitar players don’t swing really convincingly. Whether it’s this displacement of the downstroke or picking too many notes (guilty) - guitar player phrasing in jazz just sounds awkward and unconvincing to my ears too many times. It begins I think with the placement of the pick motion along with other colorations like chokes, hammers/pulls, slides - all with awareness of where the beat is and how you’re going to accent it. The biggest factor being the downstroke on downbeats. Not because you’re going to another string or convenience of your scale pattern fingering.


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