Fingering: Leavitt v. Larsen

[pauln]

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Did Immanuel Kant play any musical instruments, and what did he write about his thoughts on music?

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Immanuel Kant did not play any musical instruments, as far as historical records indicate. However, Kant did write about his thoughts on music in various works, including his "Critique of Judgment." In this work, Kant discusses the significance of music as a form of aesthetic expression and its ability to evoke emotions and beauty without relying on concepts or language. He views music as a unique art form that taps into our inner sensibility and offers a universal language that transcends cultural barriers. Overall, Kant saw music as a powerful means of connecting with our emotions and appreciating the harmony and beauty of the world.

please quote from Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Judgment" concerning music.

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I apologize for the confusion. Immanuel Kant's "Critique of Judgment" is a complex and extensive work, and it does not contain specific quotes about music...

[Mick-7]

Martin Heidegger is your guy for philosophical musings on art and music: Poetry, Language, Thought - Amazon.com

Somewhere along the line I learned (maybe from Jimmy Bruno?) fingerings that are not 3nps. Those are the ones that feel most comfortable to play.

I don't understand that statement, can you give me an example of a "non 3nps fingering that is more comfortable to play."

[rpjazzguitar]

Martin Heidegger is your guy for philosophical musings on art and music: Poetry, Language, Thought - Amazon.com



I don't understand that statement, can you give me an example of a "non 3nps fingering that is more comfortable to play."

Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings are not 3nps. I find them more comfortable, but I have some hand issues which make stretching uncomfortable.

jimmy bruno's scale fingering - Google Search

[henryrobinett]

Thanks. I think I was remembering this wrong. I learned 3nps with sweep picking from Carl Barry who, I believe, got it from Chuck Wayne.

I studied with Warren quite a bit later. He had the 7 patterns with alternate picking. Same 3nps, as you pointed out.

Somewhere along the line I learned (maybe from Jimmy Bruno?) fingerings that are not 3nps. Those are the ones that feel most comfortable to play.

But, I never think about any of them when I play. I believe that Warren did use them -- and quite successfully.

I never ever did sweep picking. Probably very shortsighted on my part. Adam Rogers makes great use of them.

[Mick-7]

Jimmy Bruno's 5 fingerings are not 3nps. I find them more comfortable, but I have some hand issues which make stretching uncomfortable.

But what is the alternative to fingering the notes as he does - a 5 fret finger span? (so you can always play at least 3 notes per string).

I never ever did sweep picking. Probably very shortsighted on my part. Adam Rogers makes great use of them.

That's ironic because it is the main reason that Frank Gambale uses a 3nps system - to facilitate sweep-picking.

[Kirk Garrett]

I always like a colorful explanation….

[robocoptick]

4 finger per string diminished lines - YouTube

[pauln]

I always like a colorful explanation….

And he's right, visible patterns are fingerings
(and invisible sounds may be scales/modes)

[henryrobinett]

That's ironic because it is the main reason that Frank Gambale uses a 3nps system - to facilitate sweep-picking.

I know. But my use of 3NPS predates Gambale, at least with his US notoriety. He's a great player but I've never been a fan. I was never a fan of his sweeping. It just always sounded too gimmicky. But not so Adam Rogers. I had a student who discovered him in the early 80s at a sound check for Vital Information? Considerably pre his joining Chick. His mind was blown. And my STUDENT talked to him after rehearsal, bought his book, that hadn't been published yet.He re-fingered all my scale patterns and arpeggios to match with Gambale's. But apparently my system of mapping everything, including all the arpeggios, to those scale patterns fit like a glove, with minor alterations, to Gambale.

[robocoptick]

I never ever did sweep picking. Probably very shortsighted on my part. Adam Rogers makes great use of them.

if it’s approached as “line goes up line goes down?” it gets corny fast. but there a countless way to use it to minimize motion w/ the picking hand.

[robocoptick]

I know. But my use of 3NPS predates Gambale, at least with his US notoriety.

tommy crain (rest in power) was using 3 finger per string fingering w/ cdb, back in the “70s.

let’s not even get into holdsworth.

[rpjazzguitar]

But what is the alternative to fingering the notes as he does - a 5 fret finger span? (so you can always play at least 3 notes per string).
.

If I understand your point (and I might not) ...

Jimmy Bruno generally advocates going back a fret (towards the nut) to grab notes that aren't in the four fret/four finger position. I think this can be done with a combination of finger stretching and hand/arm movement, even at high speed.

I don't see as much value as others do in "you can always play at least 3 notes per string". My goal is to imagine a good melody and play it however I can. The number of notes per string in a scale fingering is typically irrelevant to me, unless I get stuck in a muscle memory rut.

[henryrobinett]

tommy crain (rest in power) was using 3 finger per string fingering w/ cdb, back in the “70s.

let’s not even get into holdsworth.

Yeah. I'm talking 70s too. More like 1973 for me with Warren Nunes.

[robocoptick]

Yeah. I'm talking 70s too. More like 1973 for me with Warren Nunes.

”74

[robocoptick]

[Bop Head]

I always like a colorful explanation….

Haha, Jimmy would get immediately banned from this forum. I love his rants.

[robocoptick]

Yeah. I'm talking 70s too. More like 1973 for me with Warren Nunes.

i got my fingering ideas from allan.

[Mick-7]

I don't see as much value as others do in "you can always play at least 3 notes per string".

Not sure how others think of it but in Gambale's case, he uses it so that his picking technique will be consistent all over the fingerboard.

I know. But my use of 3NPS predates Gambale, at least with his US notoriety. He's a great player but I've never been a fan. I was never a fan of his sweeping. It just always sounded too gimmicky.

Re: Frank Gambales sweep picking, this blew me away when I heard it a couple of decades ago:

[GuyBoden]

The Five Fingerings have less stretching than 3NPS, but the the Five Fingerings have more hand shifting.

I learned Jimmy Bruno's Six Fingering about 20 years ago (before he changed it to 5 fingerings).

Edit: 3NPS

[pamosmusic]

Not sure how others think of it but in Gambale's case, he uses it so that his picking technique will be consistent all over the fingerboard.

Ive always wondered how relevant this is to people who actually sweep well, considering it’s only relevant if you don’t have any chromatic notes and if you play the scale steps in order.

[rpjazzguitar]

Ive always wondered how relevant this is to people who actually sweep well, considering it’s only relevant if you don’t have any chromatic notes and if you play the scale steps in order.

I have the same question. It's certainly helpful if the goal is to play scales rapidly in order. But that's not the goal.

I don't find the fingerings helpful at all either in reading or soloing. It all depends on what notes you're trying to play, at what speed and with which picking technique.

[Mick-7]

Ive always wondered how relevant this is to people who actually sweep well, considering it’s only relevant if you don’t have any chromatic notes and if you play the scale steps in order.

Chromatic notes can be played if you combine sweep picking with regular picking, which is what most guitarists do. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't think I understand the discussion.

I just don't find scale fingerings helpful when I'm actually playing a song. Maybe Do-Re-Mi from Sound of Music.

I am aware that Warren Nunes did play out of his patterns, but he used a lot of triads as well. Of course, he sounded great and he had an individual style which I think had something to do with his pattern based thinking.

Say you're trying to get Donna Lee up to 220bpm. How will 3nps (or any alternative fingering) actually help? Seems to me you have to look at the melody and figure out a unique fingering which will work at that speed for those notes -- and if you're not an adept sweep picker you probably have to adjust the left hand fingering to accommodate the needs of the pick.

BTW, that was an essential element of how Warren played. He thought very carefully about how to accommodate the needs of the pick. Refingering, pull-offs and a unique pick were elements of his system.

Last night, my big band called West Coast Blues and counted it off around 180 bpm (Wes' original was around 150). Guitar has the melody throughout in that chart and at that tempo, the fingering had better work. I don't know for sure how Wes fingered it, but he didn't use his pinkie except for octaves and chords. He certainly wasn't thinking 3nps. And, I don't see how 3nps can help. I have an open mind if someone can explain it.

[Christian Miller]

Gor bless ya rpjazzguitar, my feelings exactly


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[pamosmusic]

Chromatic notes can be played if you combine sweep picking with regular picking, which is what most guitarists do. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

Well yeah … but if my G major scale goes G A B … and I put a chromatic note between G and A then the economy picking is going, no? Down up down up … I guess I could start it on the up stroke and get back on track, but what if there’s a chromatic note on the next string, or I only play two of the notes and then jump a third?

I don’t know.

3nps scales are great and everything Henry mentions makes perfect sense to me but “facilitating economy picking” never felt like a particularly compelling case for them.