To Pick, or not to Pick?

[raylinds]

I know there have been a number of these threads already. I read them and think my situation is a little unique. Just getting back into jazz playing and have been experimenting with using a pick and using the thumb. I can play pretty well with my thumb, even doing upstrokes. I don't think I'll ever be able to play at the same speed as I can with a pick after 30+ years of guitar, but I am more concerned about tone and phrasing. The problem is that, so far, my tone has been a little too soft and dark. Wes seems to get a tone that seems to be in between my pick tone and thumb tone. Could that be because of the callous he built up?

I am looking for feedback from people who have played both. Maybe I just need to thicken the skin on my thumb and play with the tone controls. I have also ordered some D'Andrea ProTec and Dunlop Ultrex picks to see if those give me that in-between tone I am looking for.

Any thoughts/experiences are welcome.

[Brian859]

I play just using my thumb only for lead on the classical, steele string, and less on the electric. There is definitely a speed limit with the thumb as compared to playing with a pick.. But I can play fairly fast. So maybe its good enough. It was a little mellower when I started. But I just worked at it. I move closer to the bridge if I want it a little brighter. I think I have just as much control to do whatever. I say just keep hammering away with it and keep trying new things until you are equally good with either. Except for the speed that is.

[supersoul]

I use my thumb a lot.
For tone I will just play the same note over and over again, concentrating on the sound, similiar to how horn players practice long tones to work on their tone. Practice by changing the volume, attack, and tone. Start quietly and slowly increase, then go the other way.
As far as playing fast, there is usually a left-hand fingering that works best. Use hammer ons/pull offs so you don't have to pick every note. It dovetails with phrasing. Slur some notes, emphasize others.

[rpjazzguitar]

I know there have been a number
I am looking for feedback from people who have played both. Maybe I just need to thicken the skin on my thumb and play with the tone controls. I have also ordered some D'Andrea ProTec and Dunlop Ultrex picks to see if those give me that in-between tone I am looking for.

Any thoughts/experiences are welcome.

I have noticed this. Wes played with his thumb -- and had his other right hand fingers extended towards the lower bout of the guitar. Another way to play with your thumb is to have the other fingers curled under (so it kind of like a loose fist with thumb extended). When I compare these two approaches they sound markedly different. It seems to be that the angle at which the thumb touches the string is different.

Maybe it's worth trying it out.

[Christian Miller]

Wes Montgomery also appears to use rest strokes which may affect the sound

You get a good look at his form in this video if you haven’t seen it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJVB]

Why limit yourself to using just the thumb when you drop the pick?

Even if you play with flesh rather than nails you can still use your nails as support behind the flesh to get an in-between sound, by changing the plucking angle and the exact spot you pluck with.

For a natural acoustic with-pick sound on steel strings I prefer thick buffalo horn picks (advice I got on here; I get them on A'zon from a brand called "Bone Tones" that also sells under "Wood Tones"). Maybe give those a try too?

[Alter]

I play both styles and can have an almost identical sound with pick and thumb, except from the attack of the note. For thumb technique I play the way Wes did, with rest strokes and the thumb facing the guitar, not the floor. I believe Wes set his amps with a lot of treble to offset the thumb bass (less feedback was an added bonus).

But my pick technique is Benson style, which has a lot more bass than traditional picking, and I use D'Andrea pro plek picks which and bevelled and have a round tip so they contribute a lot of bass in the sound.

If just playing with the thumb, I would just work the amp EQ. Maybe use an eq pedal if changing into a pick sounds too different.

[paulkogut]

Later career John Abercrombie is another possible role model for thumb technique. He played with a lighter touch on lighter round wound strings, and recommended using a boost pedal (he used a Boss EQ set flat with output cranked, I use a Sarno Earth Drive with volume cranked and barely any drive) to make up for the volume that the pick adds.

While the thumb has potential for great tones, the main reason John gave up the pick was he felt he had a stronger time feel and connection to his ideas, with both hands making direct contact with the strings. He inspired me to lose my pick 15 years or so ago and I agree.

I was too young to hear Wes live in concert, but I've had long talks with both John and Carmen Caramanica, all who tell me Wes used essentially all downstrokes in his single line playing. There were occasional upstroke triplet flourishes in octave and chord playing, but no upstrokes in the 'alternate picking' sense . It was Wes' left hand phrasing and concept of the fingerboard that allowed him to play those lines at tempo. Some other folks will SWEAR that Wes used alternate picking in his single lines, but John, Carmen and my own research say its downstrokes

Kevin Eubanks is worth checking out for thumb+fingers technique, which is different from the classical inspired fingers+thumb technique of Joe Pass and Mick Goodrick

Best wishes for your music!

PK

[Brian859]

This is an interesting topic, especially when I saw that video of wes playing. First, he makes it look super easy. Second, I thought maybe I did about the same thing. But wasn't really sure because I dont think I really pay attention. So it is similar, but I play with my ring and pinky finger on the guitar, and sometimes the middle, but the index finger is bouncing up and down maybe like a counterbalance, but who knows. Then I pick with the edge of my thumb just under the nail. It doesn't have that much of a callous though. And unlike with a pick where I play it in both directions, I only play with a down stroke, or across depending on your perspective.

[raylinds]

Thanks for all of the helpful advice. After working on my thumb picking, the picks I wanted to try arrived today. After trying them out I decided to give up the thumb picking and go with the D'Andrea ProPlec 1.5mm- the tone with it is pretty much exactly what I was looking for! there were two reasons I made that choice- one was the tone, and two, having just returned to playing jazz at 66, I have enough things to practice without trying to change my right hand technique after 30+ years of using a plectrum.

I would also like to thank those here who recommended the ProPlec pick in other posts I read while researching this. I love this forum!

Now time to practice Blue Bossa.

[Alter]

Wes does occasionally play upstrokes as evident from videos. More or less like on the video below, although it's left handed..